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Feet/Legs
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ME
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Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 65

PostPosted: 03/13/08, 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't trained my dog to be a run off so I wouldn't stand a chance of him being seen as a Classy/forward/hard hunting dog with perfect manners.

And you do train or condition the dog to ignore you for the most part. Dennis had to un train his Max to get him to do the FT work he even said as much..

That is your game!!!! Can any of your dogs retrieve a duck? Even by the minimum standards of NAVHDA?


BTW since much of the time the dogs are out of site how do you know if the dogs manners are perfect? Since the dog could bust 2 or 3 birds before you find it 400yrds away finally standing on point.
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Jon
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PostPosted: 03/13/08, 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
BTW since much of the time the dogs are out of site how do you know if the dogs manners are perfect? Since the dog could bust 2 or 3 birds before you find it 400yrds away finally standing on point.


Because you can see 400 yds out on the plains or in the chukar hills. You need to get around more. BTW, where were you last October? I invited you to ND--didn't think you would show.

A fellow brought me a Jiggs daughter to look at (out of Fancher's kennel).
To get back to where this thread started, this dog needs a coat too. Wouldn't hold up 2 hours in heavy cover. Nice temperament though and well put together..for a Griffon:lol: Laughing Laughing
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ME
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PostPosted: 03/13/08, 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well when I have hunted the plains of ND and SD when my dog was 400 yrds out I couldn't see him since there are rolling hills. You must be hunting the game preserves nice flat land plowed fields ...

Yeah I was going to go out there with you! LOL...


BTW why would I care about a jigs daughter? That is my brothers dog. You want to talk to him e-mail him from his site..

I was hunting this in october
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Tony
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Joined: 22 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: 03/13/08, 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ME,

A few posts ago, you stated that all you needed to win a field trial was a broke dog. I have never seen a run-off win, so you should be in good shape with your dog. You are getting your field trial misinformation from the wrong source.

In order for a dog to hunt forward, he needs to pay attention to the handler so he knows when the course takes a turn. The run-offs and non-handling dogs keep on going in the wrong direction and they get lost. These dogs rarely end up in the placements because they do not stay forward and have to catch up with the handler because they missed the turn.


Jon,

You should have seen the coats on that pup's grandma and great grandma. Rolling Eyes
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ME
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PostPosted: 03/14/08, 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony wrote:
ME,

A few posts ago, you stated that all you needed to win a field trial was a broke dog.

No this is what I said...
ME wrote:
it is about run and having a broke dog. That is it.




You FT's are all so sensitive about your GAME!!!

Is there a healing corse in these FT's or is there any time on the course that you are told to stop your dog or call it in un less you are told to pick up your dog.. Just to see how it handles of course since handling is about listening to the handler, isn't it?

Or is it just about going the way the horses go!
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Tony
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PostPosted: 03/14/08, 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ME wrote:
the FT game it is about run and having a broke dog. That is it.. If you bring a broke dog you got a chance of winning every time. Not much to that then really, just a steady run away dog..


I am not sensitive about my game. I am just trying to educate a clueless Internet expert about a subject that he knows nothing about.

Handling is about hunting in front of the gun in cover likely to hold birds. It is pretty much the same as the hunt test that you have participated in, except the birds are liberated throughout the course instead of a little bird field.
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whiskerdog1
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Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: 03/14/08, 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony...if you can, Id like to know your true opinions of trialing & evaluating hunting dogs. Pros/Cons

Personally I never had an interest in the "my dog is a faster bird finder than yours" or can "Run farther than yours" & "look nicer doing it"
Though good movement & efficiency is important, but none less so than nose, cooperating/handling, ability to track, Prey drive to finish a tough retrieve water or land, & search.
But Im genuinely interested in hearing your opinion on this, where or if you think trialing is lacking in looking/breeding/testing these componants or if any of these matter to you... I just dont know many trialers.

ME-I saw your website. I do really like your grouse mounts. Nice work. Id Like to buy one off you.
I made some great stuff years ago in wood class, but lack the lathes & tools these days to be really inventive. They look really great, Im sure stained up, they look nice on the wall.
I have a similar turkey mount.
I will say we agree on McCain & the rest.
We are in the doo doo. Ive known it for years. US Dollar making new lows, Oil all time highs due to inflation & printing money we dont have, to fund a war that is a lost cause-Gen Petreus said today anyway in Wa Post. Deep Recession or worse is now forecasted & the invasion on the Open border continues. Hope we'll still be hunting in 5 years..
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ME
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PostPosted: 03/14/08, 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony wrote:
ME wrote:
the FT game it is about run and having a broke dog. That is it.. If you bring a broke dog you got a chance of winning every time. Not much to that then really, just a steady run away dog..


I am not sensitive about my game. I am just trying to educate a clueless Internet expert about a subject that he knows nothing about.

Handling is about hunting in front of the gun in cover likely to hold birds. It is pretty much the same as the hunt test that you have participated in, except the birds are liberated throughout the course instead of a little bird field.


Please answer my questions?

So in every one of these Trials do you shoot every bird that the dog points and the dog has to retrieve to hand with one command?

Can you give commands to the dogs when they are on point when you get down off your horse to flush the bird and blank off?

In fact if I remember correctly the dog only has to make ONE retrieve its whole trial career to attain a FC is that not correct?

Since I am totally clueless ain't I about it..?

That is a test of the complete Classy/hard driving/ hunt for the gun bird dog in your book yeah!

Have fun at your GAME Tony your dogs are suited well for it. Enjoy it! Your time will be up soon enough...
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Tony
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PostPosted: 03/14/08, 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whiskerdog1,

Field trialing is closer to wild upland bird hunting than any testing format that I have seen. It doesn't give a complete evaluation of the versatile qualities that the wire dogs were originally bred for, but it covers most of the aspects that I look for in a bird dog. IMO, the only true test of a hunting dog is in the field hunting wild birds; this where you will see the endurance and grit needed to give the extra effort to finish the day or complete a tough retrieve. Unfortunately, many dog owners are so kennel blind that they are not able to give a dog an honest and objective evaluation. This is why I pay for another knowledgeable dog persons opinion to determine which dog put on the best performance.

Since the CRP started turning into vast fields of ethanol and the bird numbers have dropped, I need to feed my bird dog/hunting obsession somehow, so I participate in a few field trials in the Spring and Fall. It sure beats sitting here on the Internet reading about bird dogs Rolling Eyes
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Tony
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PostPosted: 03/14/08, 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So in every one of these Trials do you shoot every bird that the dog points and the dog has to retrieve to hand with one command?

No. The birds are blanked on course and the dogs that are considered for placements must demonstrate a point, steady-to-kill, and a retrieve to hand.

Quote:
Can you give commands to the dogs when they are on point when you get down off your horse to flush the bird and blank off?

You can give as many commands as you need, but it could affect how your dog is judged.

Quote:
In fact if I remember correctly the dog only has to make ONE retrieve its whole trial career to attain a FC is that not correct?

No. In a retrieving stake, a dog has to demonstrate the retrieve that I described every time he places in a stake. Some breeds do not require retrieving points for a FC/AFC/NFC/NAFC/DC titles, but the German dogs, Vizsla, and Weim do.
Quote:
Since I am totally clueless ain't I about it..?

Yes. Very much so!

Quote:
Your time will be up soon enough...

What the F#@K is that supposed to mean???
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ME
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PostPosted: 03/15/08, 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ME wrote:
So in every one of these Trials do you shoot every bird that the dog points and the dog has to retrieve to hand with one command?

Tony wrote:
No. The birds are blanked on course and the dogs that are considered for placements must demonstrate a point, steady-to-kill, and a retrieve to hand.

So only in the retrieving stakes a dog has to retrieve correct? Do all of the above three have to come in the same sequence?

ME wrote:
Can you give commands to the dogs when they are on point when you get down off your horse to flush the bird and blank off?

Tony wrote:
You can give as many commands as you need, but it could affect how your dog is judged.


So you can give commands thus the standard is lower than a MH test or a UT test ...........

ME wrote:
In fact if I remember correctly the dog only has to make ONE retrieve its whole trial career to attain a FC is that not correct?

Tony wrote:
No. In a retrieving stake, a dog has to demonstrate the retrieve that I described every time he places in a stake. Some breeds do not require retrieving points for a FC/AFC/NFC/NAFC/DC titles, but the German dogs, Vizsla, and Weim do.

So are all of the stakes retrieving stakes?
Or are some just run point and steady to the blank off?
And in those stakes do you earn points to your FC and such?

ME wrote:
Since I am totally clueless ain't I about it..?

ME wrote:
Yes. Very much so!


Dosen't seem like it since your answers were really nothing more that excuses for your answers of NO. And my understanding that a dog can GET a FC with only one retrieving stakes placement would be correct YES or NO. Since the other points could be from none retrieving stakes.
ME wrote:
Your time will be up soon enough...

Tony wrote:
What the F#@K is that supposed to mean???


Life is like a vapor Tony, it is there and gone in the next instant. This dog stuff is really quite meaningless.

Everyone suffers the death penalty, it is unavoidable.
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Tony
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PostPosted: 03/15/08, 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So only in the retrieving stakes a dog has to retrieve correct?

Yes
Quote:
Do all of the above three have to come in the same sequence?

I don't know how your dog handles it's birds, but mine usually point them before I flush and shoot them for the dog to retrieve. Rolling Eyes
Quote:
So you can give commands thus the standard is lower than a MH test or a UT test ...........

No, the standard is much higher than MH or UT. Dogs that look like crap on point with their tongue hanging out and their tail wagging or pointing at the ground rarely earn a placement in field trials. The MH and UT handlers can give as many commands as needed, but it usually affects how the dog is judged.
Quote:
So are all of the stakes retrieving stakes?

No
Quote:
Or are some just run point and steady to the blank off?

Yes
Quote:
And in those stakes do you earn points to your FC and such?

Yes
Quote:
And my understanding that a dog can GET a FC with only one retrieving stakes placement would be correct YES or NO. Since the other points could be from none retrieving stakes.

In an Internet fantasy field trial world this could be possible, but in the real world, I doubt if it ever happens. Since a dog has to win the stake by putting on the best overall performance, the chances of winning the first 4-point retrieving stake it enters is pretty rare.

I am assuming that you are asking these questions to prepare yourself for the Four Lakes trials in May...
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ME
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PostPosted: 03/17/08, 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well with your answers I rest my case..

You actually have non retrieving stakes.. LOL

Have fun Tony enjoy the game..
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Tony
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PostPosted: 03/17/08, 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ME wrote:
Well with your answers I rest my case..


You never had a "case". Rolling Eyes
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 03/17/08, 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony..Bottom line, if you like trials, have fun. No one is knocking them.
Im running NSTRA is 2 weeks & will enjoy it. Way to prolong a season & get me out of the house & trouble.

OH was once a top 10 pheasant state. Very few wild birds left, grouse are very spotty & were once strong also. Only upside is waterfowl, turkey & deer here. I enjoy them all but enjoy walking the fields the best probably. My days as a youngster getting wild flushes are almost about over sadly. Hopefully restocking may work.

Curious about this ethanol & Iowa farming.
I know why..Money.
But cant they leave ditches alone & strip cover, as Pheasants Forever & Quail umlimited suggest for young birds & populations? And are they doing any of this?
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