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ME
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PostPosted: 10/28/06, 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

both of you two go to your rooms right now!! Laughing

Whose got the bigger pair..

I doubt anyone here hunts as many days for as many different types of game with success as ChumpChanger in one year. He has been doing hard for the past 13 years as Max is now 14 years old and it was because of that dog and how well chumpchanger had him trained that I got into it.

Jon,
I wish I had the access and contacts that you did, I am looking at a few DD's for my next dog. And your bitch is a nice looking dog if I do say so myself. I had one of the pups out of my dog look just like her but was brown and roan. Mine has great coat and it was my ribbing him about his dog that seems to have started this whole pissing match. Are there things I would like different in my dog yes. But I always wonder if I will get half the dog with my next one if I try to get one area a little better. Better to stick with the devil you know..

When will you be in ND next year? I will meet you and you can see for yourself about my dog.

I am the webmaster for the website also and he puts
Quote:
"Setting the bar"

"continuing to raise the bar"


Just to get under your skin. Wink

But he has breed the only dog in history to be a HRCH and a MH so take that for what it is worth. BTW GWP's should retrieve like a lab as well as point and hunt for game. Seen to many that don't and just want to eat the bird.

Now if you both would care to take it outside..
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Jon
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PostPosted: 10/29/06, 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ME,

I doubt Chump hunts any more game than I do- I've never seen him in Germany or Hungary hunting roe deer, spotted deer (Dammwild), red deer or boar, Arizona for Gambel, Oklahoma for bobs, etc. besides ND for ducks, geese, hare, pheasant, huns and sharpies, SD for phez, Jersy shore for ducks, snows, New York for ducks, doodles and grouse. etc. The thread was going fine til he called me a liar and a faker. I don't suffer fools and arrogant jerks kindly. I will be in ND a week before the Pheasant openner and stay for 14 days or so. PM me and I'll give you my cell #. I respect the HRCH but the breed doesn't need yet another breeder putting his twist on the breed. (The DD was never intended to be a Lab replacement. If you want the history of the DD and water work and how the Germans use these dogs in the water, PM me.) It needs hard coated, well conformed, well tempered, versatile dogs - and not just one- a lot!!! So why wasn't the GWP world knocking down the doors to breed to Caleb? There's something that's not being said here- what was wrong with the dog? What put people-off besides the owner Wink

York rotch,
I don't pose my dogs on point-don't need to. When I post a training picture, I'll tell you. These pictures were taken on the last day in ND on a 1/2 section of CRP divided by tree rows as you can see. The breeder in Germany wanted some pics of the dog.

I'm sure Brewer is a fine dog. But there's a difference between a great hunting dog and a great dog for the breed. "Setting the bar" is about the "whole" dog-performance, coat, conformation, temperament and physical health. I have watched folks just "piss off" coats in this breed for years. It makes me angry when folks advertise that such dogs are wht we should aspire to (that's why we get posts from owbners that wonder why their dogs are beat to shit in the cover). I apologize if I over react but why are folks willing to settle for griffons? Simple-they're hunters with little interest in the breed except killing things - and there are too many breeders that don't give a rats %$# about more than scores and money.

I didn't go to DDs because they're super dogs. I went there because everyone in the organization is on the same page-versatile dogs and only versatile dogs with emphasis on coat, and the whole package. Do we have our problems-you bet. If you're really honest, you'll admit that the US genepool of tested and proven versatile dogs like the one I posted above is minimal. Coat is the distuinguishing feature of the breed!!! If open, soft coated dogs become the norm, than we may as well throw in with the Griffons and call them all the same.

Enjoy that dog-you don't get really good ones that often and I don't doubt that Brewer is a good one. I've been through 7 dogs in the past 6 years and have 2 really good ones. The others were good dogs that now live with someone else. But Chump speaks of setting the bar.....and he calls me a liar....and neither is true.

The end.
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ME
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PostPosted: 10/29/06, 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It needs hard coated, well conformed, well tempered, versatile dogs - and not just one- a lot!!! So why wasn't the GWP world knocking down the doors to breed to Caleb? There's something that's not being said here- what was wrong with the dog? What put people-off besides the owner


Why I don't know? I haven't pimped him and I don't run in the FT circles, or in the AKC games and Clubs NAVHDA ain't about the dogs as the former director of testing is even quoted as saying in the VHD "it is about the people". A pro who I trained with really liked the dog or at least that is what he said to my face. He also said that if the dog doesn't have the right pedigree no matter how good the dog is, GWP breeders in NAVHDA won't touch it. He said they are the most snobbish of all the breeders in NAVHDA that way. Heck, I don't really care I would be picky myself with my female. Some have said that he is the phenotype and not the genotype, which may be true. I have only breed him 4 times and not to NAVHDA breeders and have gotten some really nice dogs that look like him and have the same great coat and one guy who has one and has had GWP's for 20 years said "This is the best most natural dog at everything I have ever owned, when are you breeding Caleb again? I am in the market for another dog" Another was offered $3500 for his 9 mo old pup in Iowa the first year he took it hunting by one of the guys in another hunting party that they meet up with, after 3 days of hunting with the dog. Anecdotal, yes, but these are hunting dogs and everyone likes their dog. Now, like you have had 7 dogs in the last 6 years and I have to assume they have all been DD's and 5 are gone as wash outs. I have seen some from him that would be wash outs too. But he isn't from the pure DD lines like I am sure all of your past 7 dogs have been. So that is to be expected. Wink

Nothing, not being said here, you just have to watch whos questions you answer during a test as one "I don't know" can travel around the world from a bad day in the field.

What put them off? You tell me you are big in their circles I ain't and none have even seen the dog so it must just be ????..


Quote:
I've never seen him in Germany or Hungary hunting roe deer, spotted deer (Dammwild), red deer or boar, Arizona for Gambel, Oklahoma for bobs, etc. besides ND for ducks, geese, hare, pheasant, huns and sharpies, SD for phez, Jersy shore for ducks, snows, New York for ducks, doodles and grouse. etc.


So have you hunted all of these in this year as my statement said? Relax superman there is no kryptonite in this question.
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ChumpChanger
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PostPosted: 10/29/06, 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Well, Well, out hunting and look what I missed..... Jon if you look at the site in question you have misquoted it. Please try to get it right......

CHUMP CHANGE WIREHAIRS" set the standard for german wirehaired pointer water work!!!.

That happens to be a fact. The HRC titles, the NAVHDA UT 1 scores and the FACT that no CC dog has ever received less than 4 in the NAVHDA duck search, no matter where the dog was tested or who stood behind the dog on test day. That Jon is a STANDARD whether you like it or not. Laughing Laughing Keep telling yourself how you are so interested in the breed and blah,blah, blah...........Last bunch of guys I was involved with and kept spouting the "improve the breed" or"better the breed" and the " what is best for the breed" mantra had dogs that could not do the water work at their test site. So they put their heads together and dumbdowned one of the best water ducksearch sites in the country to IMPROVE THE BREEDS by lowering the testing bar. They sounded a lot like you. My dogs weren't good enough for them either, because they were and I quote "only gun dogs". Now suddenly after their dumbdown their dogs are good in the water and they have somehow improved their breeds!! Anyone who would not want a GWP to be good in the water, as good as a lab, ain't no versatile upland/waterfowl hunter. You can go on and on about the german VDD system Jon, but I live in the USA. I do not choose to belong to an organization that had ties with the Third Reich. My dogs have tested in USA organizations and have been judged by impartial eyes, and were judged to be in the prize 1 NAVHDA category . The test judges said that, not me. Laughing Laughing

Dogs get beat to *&^% because they are hunted Jon...try it sometime, you will find it happens to your dogs too. I would also add that I and most of the guys I know don't have numerous dogs. Heck if I had 3 dogs to hunt my jeep trails and I hunted the cover from your photos, my dog would not have a mark on him, no matter how his coat was. I also see a big red flag with your statement that you have gone through 7 dogs in the last 6 years. Now either you are just one of those who will never be pleased, or you just can't train a dog. Which is it? No dog is perfect Jon as you know.........seems to me you like pictures of pretty dogs, you really don't care how they hunt, as long as they meet some pseudo standard and take a good photo. I have stood and watched a certified to breed VDD drahthaar that would not cross a little dike after a LIVE swimming and quacking mallard right in front of it. The owner had to walk around the other side of the pond and shoot the duck, and the dog still would not come over!!! So much for german breeding excellence. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes The dog sure had a nice coat though!! Laughing Laughing I do not care for slow big boned german drahthaars, no matter how good of a coat they have. They can not run, they have no range, and are slow a foot. They PLOD. They are glorified griffons with harsher coats. Heck I might as well get pointing lab if that is what I want to see afield. If you just want a dog to find, point, and track a few birds in the uplands Jon, as you stated, then get a GSP, setter, or pointer. They are much more fun to watch afield. It is the water work and the GWPs ability to do it that sets the GWP apart form the other versatile breeds.

ME's dog(even though it has lived up to 3 different organization's testing standards) nor my dog { a one test try NAVHDA UT 1 dog and a UKC/HRC Hunting retriever (HR)} will ever be used by any breeder for anything. They are buddy clubs. I am not a member of the Buddy Club. I am a hunter, I really go hunting, I am not a tester/gamer type. I and my dog's come out of nowhere kennel USA with dogs that don't have the right pedigree yet can still ace their little tests. We are a threat to them and their crony club. I will continue to use my GWPs as the versatile dogs they were born to be. I hunt for upland and waterfowl. I will continue to breed "gundogs" much to many folks distain. Very Happy Now you have good day Jon. Very Happy Very Happy


Last edited by ChumpChanger on 11/02/06, 10:37 am; edited 3 times in total
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Tony
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PostPosted: 10/30/06, 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boy! This thread has really gone downhill. Rolling Eyes
ChumpChanger wrote:
I will continue to breed "gundogs" much to many folks distain. Very Happy


If you knew how many generations of poor coats were in your dogs pedigree, you would do the breed a favor and send the bitches to your brothers dog instead of your own.
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ChumpChanger
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PostPosted: 10/30/06, 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
......you would do the breed a favor ........


You known that sounds a lot like the other BS I have heard

Quote:
......"improve the breed" or"better the breed" and the " what is best for the breed" mantra.......


Same 'ol pontificating nonsense..... Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Kind of like running the GWP in FT helps out its versatility for the "foot hunter" Tony?...spare me. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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york_rotch
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PostPosted: 10/30/06, 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You will not hear from me again on this subject.

First you wrote in your expert and highly educated opinion......

Jon wrote:


Is this what you're setting the bar with??



This owner was able to afford the hair with the dog!!! (Mann, this is too easy!!)


And then...

Jon wrote:
"Setting the bar" is about the "whole" dog-performance, coat, conformation, temperament and physical health.


How does someone determine the above from a single photograph STOLEN from a post on another site? You must be a real expert on the subject...heck...even some sort of GOD!!!

Sounds to me like you are changing what "Setting the Bar" is to suit your your current mood.

For a guy as well travelled, and who has as much experience with the breed as you claim to have....you contribute this sort of drivel.

Shame on you.
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Tony
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PostPosted: 10/31/06, 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChumpChanger wrote:
Same 'ol pontificating nonsense..... Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Kind of like running the GWP in FT helps out its versatility for the "foot hunter" Tony?...spare me. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Why don't you tell us all about your first hand field trial knowledge and experience. I'll bet you have probably never participated in, or even seen a field trial. Rolling Eyes

Field trials are all about hunting; searching, finding, pointing, backing, and retrieving. The trick to winning is: your dog has to have the best performance of all of the dogs entered.

I foot-hunt all of my dogs, and we have probably shot almost 2,000 wild birds over their points in the last 15 years. Most of them are out of field trial lines, but my NAFC Runner-up/FC/AFC/MH is out of a couple of foot-hunted NAVHDA UT dogs.
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ChumpChanger
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PostPosted: 10/31/06, 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny ? Confused I thought I said versatility.....Where is the water? Remember versatility....you might just as well have a setter.
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katababa
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PostPosted: 10/31/06, 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found this thread very entertaining . . .
yet again, chump changy you manage to show your true ignorance and stupidity.
WHY ARE YOU POSTING ON THE GWPCA board as A BREEDER when you don't even abide by their breeding standards for betterment of the breed?

PLEASE ANSWER THAT QUESTION FOR ONCE!

And i would hope that after all the RIDICOLOUS COMMENTS you post, NO ONE WOULD BUY ONE OF YOUR DOGS EVER AGAIN. YOU ARE DISGRACE TO THE WIRE COMMUNITY.

i could say more, but that wouldn't be polite.

btw, if my dogs feet looked like that AFTER ANYTHING, i would consider that animal cruelty. It also shows how much care you provide for those dogs if you can't even clip their nails . . .
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Jon
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PostPosted: 10/31/06, 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sounds to me like you are changing what "Setting the Bar" is to suit your your current mood.


When anyone mouths off, claiming to "set the bar", they make themselves fair game. If they don't like it, they should stop mouthing off-especially folks that have only owned 1 or 2 (maybe 3?) dogs.

I'm assuming the reason we only hear about the water work is because somewhere there's some holes in the picture-what???? Hows the pointing??, search??, etc. How many prize 2's did Caleb run?? What was missing??? You talk about setting the bar, you'd better be damn well near perfect. It might be better to come down to earth with the rest of us mortals.

Jim Reiser could talk about setting the bar-but then after 30 years, countless UT 1's, VC's, MH's, and a few FC--- he doesn't need to because we all KNOW IT!!! Wehle could talk about setting the bar, Bremauer., in Germany, could talk about setting the bar (150 VGP dogs!!!!! from his own kennel), a dozen top producing stud dogs. You guys have a ways to go.

You can breed HRCH's till they turn black and their beards fall off----performance in this breed will always start with search, point and cooperation. Dog doesn't have some reach, snap and pop on its birds, you won't see anyone saluting from the serious seats. An HRCH is a GREAT accomplishment-but its not what's gonna ring anyone's bells. Folks go looking for the field work first and expect the water work to come with it. That's the way it is-versatility in this country starts with bird work. We ARE field biased-its the way it is. Bring us a 2-300 yd gun dog with snap and style on its birds and add the HRCH and I think you'll see a little more interest-provided the dog has a coat.
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ME
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PostPosted: 11/01/06, 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon wrote:
Quote:
Sounds to me like you are changing what "Setting the Bar" is to suit your your current mood.


When anyone mouths off, claiming to "set the bar", they make themselves fair game. If they don't like it, they should stop mouthing off-especially folks that have only owned 1 or 2 (maybe 3?) dogs.

I'm assuming the reason we only hear about the water work is because somewhere there's some holes in the picture-what???? Hows the pointing??, search??, etc. How many prize 2's did Caleb run?? What was missing??? You talk about setting the bar, you'd better be damn well near perfect. It might be better to come down to earth with the rest of us mortals.

Jim Reiser could talk about setting the bar-but then after 30 years, countless UT 1's, VC's, MH's, and a few FC--- he doesn't need to because we all KNOW IT!!! Wehle could talk about setting the bar, Bremauer., in Germany, could talk about setting the bar (150 VGP dogs!!!!! from his own kennel), a dozen top producing stud dogs. You guys have a ways to go.

You can breed HRCH's till they turn black and their beards fall off----performance in this breed will always start with search, point and cooperation. Dog doesn't have some reach, snap and pop on its birds, you won't see anyone saluting from the serious seats. An HRCH is a GREAT accomplishment-but its not what's gonna ring anyone's bells. Folks go looking for the field work first and expect the water work to come with it. That's the way it is-versatility in this country starts with bird work. We ARE field biased-its the way it is. Bring us a 2-300 yd gun dog with snap and style on its birds and add the HRCH and I think you'll see a little more interest-provided the dog has a coat.


Well Jon,

Seeing how you think my dog is lacking something I have to LAUGH Laughing

In fact my dog with the "lack of pop" made TWO of the big NAVHDA line dogs one a GSP which is now a VC From the very lines you say are so great look like the rank amature in a AKC MH brace.. Oh yeah he had a 9.6 average score. Before that he made a green flats dog look really bad in a brace at a fun hunt he was only 22 month old at the time. Now since my dog never saw a training bird until I started to train for a UT at the age of 3 it didn't take him long to realize that this was just a game. Now he got the UT 184 pz 2 the first time out due to steadiness and he relocated on birds that move, on his own, a big no no in NAVHDA, not in hunting. Then I had to put the screws to him to get the steadiness and to unlearn him how to hunt and teach him how to play the game. In doing this I got some advice on how to steady the dog that I think was not the best. It was to have someone from the gallery correct the dog if he moved. I believe that doing this over the next year and a half slowy moved the dogs focus from the bird to the gallery. I had numerous different people do so. THen I got the UT 204 PZ I passed 5 MH tests training for invite. Got a 191 at the invite. Next weeked ran a MH and got the title. Tried to requalify and got a 197 pz two cause I got a 2 in heeling or I would have had back to back 204's. Then a month later the dog did something that I never saw before during a saturday UT Test he pointed then he circled the bird as the crowd came up. He did this again on Sunday on one bird so all it took was one bird each day to get a 3 in pointing thus back to back 200 pz 2's. Now when talking to some other trainers there. One has DD's and he said he has a dog like that, put a planted bird down and he points it and then looks back waiting for you to get there to flush it. Go wild birds and he is solid as a rock. So a combination of bordom and the way I was correcting steadness I believe lead to the circling.

So now Jon you should know by now that if someones dog can't measure up in one area against your dog they will look for some reason to try and pick at you. Because otherwise their dog isn't all that good. Caleb did a UT on the same day against the best DD in the usa who got the highest score at the hegwald of any US dog and it was clear that Caleb did a 99% duck search with 4 resends. I had people in the gallery say that he was the class of the duck search that day. Basicly every day that you send him to do one..

So Jon once a dog gets bored with planted birds what do you do? I decided not to try to play to my own ego with NAVHDA trying to get the VC since how do you unlearn a dog about planted birds, and I got him because I hunted with his sire and wanted a hunting dog. By the time my dog had ever seen a planted bird I had shot 257 wild grouse, woodcock, phez, ducks and geese over him. Now one deer season my uncle was up and he was telling me about the HRC and the retriever tests he was running with his dogs, he said that they allow versatile dogs to run. He diagramed them and I said heck Caleb can do that now. I went and joined a club and listened and took the advice of the guys who had well trained dogs. Once I learned what the dog needed to learn it was all down hill He was one of the best dogs there and made many a retriever owner say "Quit showing off" after we came from the line and a flawless run. So think what you want Jon I already have frozen semen from him and he will be the sire of my next dog. The only difference is I know more about training to play the games if I choose to which will benefit the dog..

You might want to come back down from that cloud since it is just the smoke someone has been blowing up your Wink
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Jon
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PostPosted: 11/01/06, 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ME,

You have a great need to look down on everyone-while you name dogs that your dog humiliated on a given day. I'd say this dog's biggest detriment is probably YOU. Maybe folks just got tired of genuflecting at the CC altar!!!
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ChumpChanger
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PostPosted: 11/01/06, 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon says
Quote:
....You have a great need to look down on everyone.......


Funny I don't get that impression from any of ME's posts, much as I may disagree with some of those very posts.


I read more of the "You have a great need to look down on everyone" mentality from you. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: 11/01/06, 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AND AGAIN, CHUMP CHANGE YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTIONS ASKED!!

I BELIEVE THAT'S THE DEFINITION OF A COWARD.

you and your protege "ME" need to take it to a board like versatiledogs where you wouldn't stand a chance of "setting the bar"
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