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Gun shy ness
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marymurr
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PostPosted: 10/02/06, 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I totally agree Jon...I know what you are saying. I was just focusing less on the dogs ability and more on the owner's ability.

I have a good friend that is a Wildlife, fish and game officer that retrains the dogs....and CJ's Dad here didn't have to give him "special Eduation" he had a bond and the dog wanted to please. Will do anything for him.

I can't quite grasp Chump's concept of "getting rid" of the dog because I lack the ability to train it properly. Not every person can make the varsity squad as a "trainer" either. I have had 51 wirehairs here in the last 2 years, and each has their own personality.....and training them to go into a home takes guaging the training specifically to each dog. My specialty is animal behavior and rehab....medically and physically. 80% of my dogs are adopted into active pet homes. But some have gone on to be tremendous hunters. They bring a lot of joy to people either way.

Thank you Farkum for the post.....I agree.....

Mary
Thank you for the posts....It is interesting to see other's points of view even if we do not agree.
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ChumpChanger
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PostPosted: 10/02/06, 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you are is an idealist......well sorry but dogs aren't people, and to compare parenting a child to raising a dog is ridiculous.Laughing Laughing Dogs are not little people, they are dogs......and some dogs just don't make it. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Laughing
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marymurr
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PostPosted: 10/02/06, 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not compare dogs to children...quite the contrary...
I am a licensed rescue shelter.....I do what the State requires, and work with dogs to rehab so they may go into homes that love them for what they are. I have trained with Sue Sternberg, and Cesar Millan...and not all of our dogs make it. Both of the above encourage owners to retrain themselves. be dominant over the dog.....and be strict, and ther dog knows it is a dog...people need to know it is a dog.

I derive joy from our wirehairs, rescues do obedience, dock diving, running partners, and good family dogs.

Like I said...it is good to have a forum where mutual respect is a given...and ideas can be exchanged. Wink

Mary Murray
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cjs180
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PostPosted: 10/02/06, 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with Jon and Chump on this one. I would myself keep the dog, but would start over with a different dog from a different line. Try some of the ideas mentioned ealier in the thread. The breeder of that dog should have fired guns over the pups before any of them go home, yes I said fired shots over the pups, from a distane of course. This means in the 1st 49 days before they go home. A good breeder that is raising hunting dogs and not show dogs should do this. Most will have the pups socialized to some degree and have them introduced to water, riding in a car, etc.

Chris
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marymurr
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PostPosted: 10/02/06, 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just pointing out that these dogs are good for many other sports besides hunting. A good alternative for the dogs that have been shot over as you said before. Rather than "get rid" of them....place them with people that can enjoy them in another sport.


Wires do well with dock diving...and it is fun!

There is a wirehair I saw here recently at the Meet at Cabella's , and she was said to be 4th in the nation.

Mary
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katababa
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PostPosted: 10/02/06, 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think the argument here is what would you do with a dog that was gunshy. The general consensus was you don't "get rid of a dog" just because it doesn't hunt. If you do, it is your responsibility to rehome it where it will be loved for what it is.

Chump Change, what happens to your dogs if one doesn't hunt???
you never answered my question . . .i would love your input as a responsible breeder. . . .

btw . . .any reason you don't belong the gwpca breeder list since they do have to sign a code of ethics for breeding . . .. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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ChumpChanger
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PostPosted: 10/03/06, 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no problem with "dogs not hunting"...that is what we breed...gundogs. A dog that was a reject would be replaced, and the reject would be destroyed. It is a hardball world. The GWP isn't meant to lay on the sofa and eat bon-bons.

Problems with dogs field preformance can be traced to stupid owners 99% of the time, and their lack of listening skills to ME, and getting bad training advice from "gamer types". You don't get a new dog because you are a bad trainer. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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cjs180
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PostPosted: 10/03/06, 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other thing you can try for a gun shy/sensitive dog is get 3-4 other dogs that are not gun shy and go nuts when they hear gun shots. Chain them up together and walk out into the field quite a ways away and take a shot. The other dogs will go nuts when they heat the gun fire and it ends up being a peer pressure deal. My current 8 year old Lab that I have was gun sensitive and we did this with her and it worked wonders. Seeing the other dogs respond the way they did, she broke down and responded the same way. After being posted on the stakes/chain, let them all out into the field and do the same thing but have some live game available that your dog gets to see and fire a shot. All the dogs go nuts and go towards the shot. CAUTION, only use dogs that are not fully trained for this. You want to have a helper dog that is going to break on the shot. This gives it more intensity and will make your dog want to get the bird also. When this is all done, make sure to give your dog a “reward” i.e. give him/her a retrieve of the bird. If the dog does not bring in back to you, don’t worry about it, you have already accomplished what you wanted to.

My current Lab that I did this with has turned out to be a great hunter and we have taken well in excess of 150 wild birds with her. I would never breed her because of the “gun sensitivity”, but you can turn some dogs around.

Good luck, Chris
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marymurr
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PostPosted: 10/03/06, 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for this advice. I will file it away for reference, and use such advice for those asking. Thank you. CJs

Yes, Chump....you breed gundogs. My dogs do not sit on the furniture eating bonbons....that is really funny you have that perception of wirehairs in homes other than hunting. But why destroy a dog when it can compete in another sport? Just curious.

These dogs won't be bred...ever...we are obliged by state law to have them spayed or neutered within 10 days of receipt of them into the program. They are not a rescue otherwise. Gosh.....I have 3 beautiful wirehairs, that do public events......endorse the breed with their solid temperments. They love being at events showing off. Maybe this is why people relinquishing their dogs insist many times that they "will not contact the breeder". Thanks Chump.....I have new insight into this issue now. I can see their point. Thanks!

Mary
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katababa
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PostPosted: 10/04/06, 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually chumpy,

dogs shouldn't eat bon-bons since they shouldnt eat chocolate, its bad for them can cause liver damage and such . . .mine much prefers caviar and liver patte as he's lounging on the sofa watching his favorite episodes of the dog whisperer.


i hope when you no longer do what you're supposed to do, your wife doesn't slate you the same fate as these poor dogs you're shooting in the head.
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ChumpChanger
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PostPosted: 10/04/06, 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
.......slate you the same fate as these poor dogs you're shooting in the head........


Who ever said I shoot dogs in the head? Who or where did I ever say I ever shot a dog? You make quite the assumption. But I suppose that is to be expected from the types who consider dogs little children, and wants to save all the "rejects". Confused Confused
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katababa
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PostPosted: 10/04/06, 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually, my dog is my dog, not my child, not my baby. he's a happy dog at that, he gets to hunt (whatever he likes) and play and be lazy if he chooses. You're the one that's avoiding all the questions concerning your practices with these "rejects".

And if you reread thepost, it's drenched in sarcasm . . .my dog doesn't actually do those things thank you very much
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ChumpChanger
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PostPosted: 10/04/06, 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your post, is what it is.....as they say.....and speaks volumes to me. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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katababa
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PostPosted: 10/04/06, 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well then chumpy,

to be honest so does yours . . .and exactly what you do with these "reject" since you are avoiding the subject.

compassion for animals is not a vice . . .you obviously think it is
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Jay-Mar's GWP's
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PostPosted: 10/04/06, 10:45 am    Post subject: gun shy dogs and the breeder's responsibility Reply with quote

ChumpChanger wrote:
There is no problem with "dogs not hunting"...that is what we breed...gundogs. A dog that was a reject would be replaced, and the reject would be destroyed. It is a hardball world. The GWP isn't meant to lay on the sofa and eat bon-bons.

Problems with dogs field preformance can be traced to stupid owners 99% of the time, and their lack of listening skills to ME, and getting bad training advice from "gamer types". You don't get a new dog because you are a bad trainer. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

god, where do I begin
first off...who are "YOU", to say if they don't listen to "ME", then they are wrong. What are your qualifications as a trainer? Just because you breed dogs, does not make you an expert.
A good breeder is brutally honest about their dogs and not blame an owner for a dog's faults and a good trainer takes every dog on an individual basis and actually learns from other trainers. Just because a dog has a problem does not mean the owner is stupid. There are dogs born in every litter that are softer then others. It takes an expereinced breeder to recognize that and put that dog in the right home. It takes a good breeder be willing to help that owner out when they run into trouble. Only if a dog is so far gone that it is dangerous to itself or others should it be put done. You don't put a dog down because it won't hunt. Let's take that thinking to people.....you are born into a family that are artists...you can't draw to save your life. Hmmmm.guess we have to kill you. Gee...here's a though, find another talent to develope.
Yes, wires are hunting dogs..but that is NOT the be all end all of their life. My dogs do lay on the couch and eat the equivalent of doggie bon bons. But they hunt, they do agility, they show, they do obedience, they are therapy dogs.
If I have a dog that is placed in a home and the owners have a problem, they call me. I do everything I can to help them, I take the dog back if they are unhappy (who cares what the reason is!). Do I give them their money back or replace the dog..not always. If they just want to get rid of the dog, no. But I still take the dog back and find a home for it. As a breeder, you chose to bring that dog into the world. You are responsible till the day they die ( and not by your hand) for them to be treated right and to be safe. If that means, you keep a dog till it dies in your arms, even if you have too many dogs, because you can't find a home for that dog, then you better be prepared to do that. If you are not willing to do that, THEN DON'T BREED DOGS!!
The "HARD FACTS" as you put it, in the dog world is that there are too many people like you who breed dogs and are not willing to stand behind them. They are not open to their puppy people beyond the check clearing and they blame everything on the dog or the owner THAT THEY CHOSE IN THE FIRST PLACE TO SELL THE DOG TOO!! They would rather see a pup of their's go into rescue (if they have even that much of a heart) or take it back and destroy it then say; I made a mistake in the planning of this litter and didn't get exactly what I wanted or chose the wrong home for that particular dog.
Gun shyness can be due to a lack of maturity and someone pushing a dog too hard too fast. Do you as a breeder and trainer, tell your people not to shoot over pups? Do you test your pups before sending them? Or are you like most macho hunting types and think, I got a pup, get it out there at the first hunting season and run it into the ground? Wires (especially males) mature slowly. They need time to grow up and learn. If I went with the thinking that pups are either born natural hunters and are ready to hunt as soon as they are born or not, then I would not own 2 national winning duals and who knows how many MH's. None of these dogs were anything as pups, but give them time to grow up and cultvate them slowly and wham bam, winning hard core hunting dog. If a person comes to me, as a breeder, and wants a hunting dog now, I don't sell them a pup. They should buy an adult. If they want a good dog that they are willing to let grow up and work with to develop the talent, then they get a pup.
I am sorry to rant so much but this just made me furious. As a breeder, a trainer of dogs for 20 years, and someone who is very involved with rescue, you are the kind of person that makes my blood boil. Please, seriously reconsider your position about dogs and if you can't, then please, don't ever breed another litter, or at the very least, donate a portion of your profits to rescue so we can take care of your dogs when they get dumped!!
Nikki
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