German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America
AKC Parent Club for the German Wirehaired Pointer
 
 ForumForum FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
 gwpca bulletin boardGWPCA Home Page   gwpca bulletin boardBulletin Board   gwpca bulletin boardGWPCA Rescue Page 

Coat-King by Mars- Grooming/Stripping???
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index -> General Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dualgwp
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
Location: New Hope PA

PostPosted: 04/11/03, 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are absolutely correct about coat length being groomed to fool they eye into believing the dog has a natural coat. That's why it's important to actually get your hands on a dogs coat to feel texture. It's really difficult to tell from a photo.

But, keep in mind, a dog can have a relatively long coat and still have alot of texture. Many longer coats can be very dense and very harsh and carry good undercoats. Many coats can be very long and very soft and carry excess undercoat or none at all. And then you have the shorter harsh coats that appear to be really good, but don't carry any undercoat either.

I think it takes years looking at a lot of GWP's to really know a good coat, and to be able to tell whether a coat is naturally that way, or groomed to look that way.

While we always want good, natural harsh coats that needs little to no real grooming, sometimes you will get a coat that with some work, will be very serviceable in the field. I think that's what we need to keep in mind, a working coat that will shed water and dirt and burrs, with minimal upkeep.

Bernee Brawn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dualgwp
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
Location: New Hope PA

PostPosted: 04/11/03, 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing (and I apologize if I am sounding preachy or know it all, I'm not, believe me) I don't want to give the impression that all dogs in the show ring have bad coats that need major grooming to appear the way they do. I have seen alot of nicely coated dogs do well in breed competition.

And,,,,, I've helped with many judges education programs over the years and one of the things we have always stressed is coat. We try to bring good natural coated dogs so the judges can get their hands on them to feel what they should be looking for. Sometimes though it's tough to get them to understand, or even accept what we are saying. Again, unless and until you have felt alot of GWP coats, good and bad and inbetween, groomed and ungroomed, short and long... well it's just a difficult concept to really "get".

OK, it's someone elses turn!
Bernee
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dorsey
Member
Member


Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Posts: 8

PostPosted: 04/11/03, 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The standard says a dog must have a correct coat to be a correct type.

So just because a dog looks the type with beard, has a coat an inch and a quarter long, short on the head and ears it may not be a good coat so it may not be a correct type?

I'm just wondering, if the show dogs have had their coats pulled so much that it has improved the coat texture and made them look great , well dosen't that mean that the pups from these "CH" will probably not have any better coats then the parents original coats?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dualgwp
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
Location: New Hope PA

PostPosted: 04/14/03, 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dorsey,
(actually I was hoping someone else would jump in )
I'm not sure where you wish this to go, but as I said before... in order to really evaluate a GWP coat, you really need to touch it, to feel it, to get your hands on it. Show dog, field dog, hunting dog... makes no difference.

It's true, a good groomer can make a mediocre coat look very good and a good groomer can make a good coat look absolutely perfect. And then, bad grooomers can make a nice coat look horrible!!!

It's only with experience and feeling a lot of coats that I believe you can start to "know" a good coat, from a so so coat, from a terrrific coat, from a natural coat to a man made coat.

And then you have to watch and look at the offspring of dogs to know lines that are consistent in producing good coats. Even dogs with darn near perfect coats will throw puppies with poor coats, and visa versa. Coat genetics in this breed is a strange and confusing thing sometimes. Ask anyone who has bred two really good coated dogs, and ended up with wooly puppies! Or smooth puppies.

But, even though a dog must have a proper coat to be of correct type, there is much more to a dog than just coat. I have seen wonderful coats, absolutely hard,harsh, steely coats on dogs that were put together so poorly.......and then very mediocre to horrible coats on beautifully put together animals....

I'm not trying to make excuses, just telling what my experiences with this breed has been. It's even difficult sometimes to look at 8 wk old pupppies and absolutely know what their adult coat will be. There have been pups that I looked at that I thought would have absoultely wonderful coats as adults... and surprise, they ended up with too much coat. Or puppies that at 8 wks old looked thick and harsh and grew up much softer than I would have thought. Or even, pups that looked like they may grow a nice short tight coat, and ended up with almost nothing.


Bernee Brawn
Justa GWp's
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dorsey
Member
Member


Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Posts: 8

PostPosted: 04/15/03, 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for sharing your knowledge about coats. How many generations of breeding will it take to get the coat on the GWP consistant?

And how can that be accomplished if even two parents with excellent coats are bred and there are still some wooly and smooth coated dogs produced?

Does line breeding make a difference with the consistany of coat?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheerio
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 285
Location: Canada

PostPosted: 04/15/03, 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Between 2 parents of correct coat, some pups will have the correct coat, some will not. How to achieve consistant breeding of dogs with correct coats? you breed only the best pups with correct coat to dogs of correct coat. Little by little, you will produce mostly, and eventually only correct coats. Keep in mind however that you will, from time to time have "throw backs", meaning that on rare occasion, a pup will inheritate of the non-correct coat of one of his ancester. This pup should not be bred if you are to continue breeding for correct coat.
Would line breeding helps? No, it would in fact go against the improvement of the coat in the line. Line breeding, is nothing less, and nothing more than in breeding. The difference is only one generation. When in breeding, or line breeding, you multiply the good genes (perhaps those of the correct coat), but you also multiply the bad genes, these that you should be seeking at eliminating (perhaps those of the non-correct coat). Short coat is dominant over long coat. and soft, wooly coat over wire coat. Thus, by in-breeding, you would be more likely to multiply the genes of shorter and softer coat present in some of the ancestors.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
admin
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 33

PostPosted: 04/15/03, 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before we condem line breeding it is important to understand what it is and what it does.

Line-breeding compresses the gene pool. That means that both the bad and the good will be emphasized, yes. However, if a breeder is VERY aware of what is in the pedigree, it can be a very valuable tool for setting desirable traits in an animal and for producing animals that will, themselves, go on to produce those valuable traits.

Line breeding is not a new practice nor is it a practice limited to dogs. Much of what we know about linebreeding and the linebreeding co-efficient comes from the 100's of years of record keeping from breeding Arabian horses. It has also been done for many many years in Throughbred horses. While in the hands of a novice it can be a bad thing.. in the hands of a knowledgable breeder it is an important and valuable tool.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dorsey
Member
Member


Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Posts: 8

PostPosted: 04/16/03, 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can understand how breeders can disagree about line breeding and out crossing practices etc but if everyone that breeds gwp's agrees about what are "good traits" and what are "bad traits"......I am guessing the problems come bout whhen dogs that have alot of the "bad traits" are bred?

How exactly is a line established? Just buy a couple good dogs and start breeding? How do you select the pick puppy to be kept in your breeding program? Won't the people that buy the other puppies from your litter breed them to even if they are the pups with the smooth or soft coats??

Does everyone in the GWPCA agree on what the "good traits" and "bad traits" are?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Keith
Master
Master


Joined: 27 Dec 2002
Posts: 163

PostPosted: 04/16/03, 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some good traits:
Does the dog have a natural desire to stay to the front, quarter naturally, seek out birdy objectives, have good pointing instincts, point with style and intensity, have a good nose, hunt with head up but put it down to follow out a track, have good tracking instincts, instinct to carry and retrieve, soft mouth, love of water, cooperation mixed with the right amount of independence, good marking ability of downed birds, natural desire to stay in contact with trainer but hunt at a range and speed that will produce birds in the given cover, bird crazy, naturally obedient, good coat not to long or to short, good undercoat and harsh outercoat, good build and gait, good endurance, ability to get along with other dogs and strange people, bold and protective of owner but not aggressive towards strangers. I don't think you could pick a harder dog to breed than a versatile hunting dog with a wire coat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
admin
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 33

PostPosted: 04/16/03, 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good questions!

"Good" and "Bad" traits are expressly laid out (for the physical appearance, anyway) in the German Wirehaired Pointer standard. This is approved by the membership of the GWPCA. The standard goes into great detail as to what the "perfect" GWP looks like.. what the coat is like... what the head shape is like, etc. Good breeders know that standard VERY well and attempt to breed dogs that fit that standard, AS WELL as having terrific field instincts.

The "pick" puppy is determined by knowledge and experience. Usually less experienced breeders will seek out the help from experienced breeders to help decide which puppy is the pick.

A "line" isn't established in one or two generations. It takes many generations to establish a "line." Truthfully there are only a handful of truly identifiable "lines" in GWPs today. This is simply because the breed is still fairly young here in the US. Unlike a breed such as the Scottish Terrier, which was recognized in the US in the early 1900's, the GWP wasn't recognized until the 1950's.

So, what some people think of as "lines" are often simply one or two outstanding dogs that happen to carry the same kennel name. The question is, will those outstanding dogs go on to reproduce themselves and reveal themselves in their descendants?

In actuality, what a "line" really is, is a particular genetic family of animals that consistanty reproduce themselves in quality. They have a specific look and attitude that makes them recognizable unto themselves.

This does not mean all dogs from Joe Blow's kennel have a white spot on their left hip. It means that all dogs from Joe Blow's kennel have outstanding rear angulation, correct height to length proportions, strong bird instincts, natural inclination to back, etc. etc, and they may also have a distinctive "type" as well... a particular look about the head or topline that makes them apparent.

Lines are developed through sheer dogmatic (pun intended!! Smile ) determination.... by blood, sweat and many, MANY tears. They are truly a lifetime's labor of love for the breed.

As for people breeding puppies that are not the "pick" this is usually prevented by selling all "pet" quality animals on limited registration (which states on their AKC papers that no pups may be registered out of that particular animal) and on "spay/neuter" contracts.

In the majority of breeds today, this is common practice. However, in the more actively promoted field breeds, such as the GWP, this often is met with hostility on the buyers part. They believe that they are going to hunt their dog and, if it is a good hunter, then it should be bred... no matter what it looks like.. smooth coat.. small size.. whatever. Thus, just as you will see some conformation dogs with soft coats and no birdy attitude, you will see some field dogs that are very small and have short, slick coats.

Contrary to what you may hear from others on these boards... people who breed these dogs are very rarely doing it because they are malicious or greedy (there's NO money in breeding dogs!!) or "out to win at all costs." Usually they either don't have enough experience to really see their dogs and recognize what they are passing on.. or they simply have lost sight of the "big picture" for the breed in their excitment over their current winner (field or show.)

So, breeders must be hard hearted when they place pups, and use the AKC limited registration papers and REQUIRE spay and neuter contracts on the pups they have determined are not "pick" quality. This isn't easy and if often means you end up with pups that are still looking for homes at 3 and 4 months of age. But, that's what it requires if we want to build consistency in this breed.

Breeders must be hard hearted when they breed their animals as well. That Best In Show winner may not have the slightest desire to look at a bird.. or that National Field Champ might look just like a tiny German Shorthair Pointer... so the breeder has to harden his/her heart and look past the thrill of the win and the love for his/her dog and really look at the big picture for the breed before deciding whether or not to breed that animal.

I hope that answered some of your questions. If you'd like to see the GWP standard, it is on the GWPCA website at http://www.gwpca.com.

-SilvarGWP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Keith
Master
Master


Joined: 27 Dec 2002
Posts: 163

PostPosted: 04/16/03, 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the GWPCA does provide the necessary breed standards for conformation and it is important to breed to these standards. But if the breed is going to grow in popularity equal emphasis has to be put on field performance and versatility. There are many "show breeds" that will always be obscure because they serve no real function beyond being show dogs and pets. The German Wirehair is the most popular hunting dog in Germany and should be right at the top in this country. There is no breed better equipped for the changing hunting conditions in this country today. Public access to private land is harder and harder to come by. Seasons are getting shorter and hunters need to be more diversified to enjoy a long hunting season. More and more hunting is on smaller tracts of land that are scattered. More people are living in urban environments where they could use one dog that can hunt anything and be a good pet and watchdog. A cooperative close to medium working dog that can handle a multiple of species is what is needed. A dog that can hunt rabbits and quail one day, hunt waterfowl in the middle of winter, hunt the woods for woodcock and ruffed grouse, point and track pheasants in small grain fields and track wounded big game such as deer. Breeders need to keep that in mind and breed for versatility. Versatile dogs that can excel in the water, field and woods.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheerio
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 285
Location: Canada

PostPosted: 04/16/03, 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbadmin, I totally agree with you, and it was not my intention to reject linebreeding. I was only answering a specific question, and, having studied genetics for many years, I know that certain traits are dominant over others. As you said, linebreeding is compressing good and bad traits. The problem arises when the compressed bad traits are dominant over the compressed good traits.
As far as what are good and what are bad traits, it is, again as you said, defined by the breed standards. I would like to add however that it is not possible to breed only dogs that have only good traits as this would require breeding only perfect dogs. Perfect dogs as we know, does not exist. So what is good and what is bad becomes a matter of priority, a metter of choice the breeder must make. In each breeding, the breeder knows that he will gain something, hopefully what he was aiming for, and loosing something, hopefully something that will not be replaced by a serious fault. A breeder should use his acquired knowledge and experience of the lines he will be breeding to mate the best possible dogs in accordance to the standard and to what he is trying to achieve. As to the end result, it is often a guessing game.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dorsey
Member
Member


Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Posts: 8

PostPosted: 04/16/03, 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
[quote="cheerio"] How to achieve consistant breeding of dogs with correct coats? you breed only the best pups with correct coat to dogs of correct coat. Little by little, you will produce mostly, and eventually only correct coats.""


So there are gwp breeders that are producing only correct coats?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
admin
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 33

PostPosted: 04/16/03, 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't we all wish !! Smile

No, no one is breeding consistantly good coats... yet. But it is one of the goals we are all striving for...along with all the other things that make up a great GWP. It has been mentioned a couple ot fimes.. but I'll repeat again... a correct coat is probably the hardest (conformation) thing to get consistantly in this breed.

Again.. this is a young breed here in the US. We are all still working on getting the consistancy of coat that, say.. Airedales .. or Westies.. have. But those breeds have been recognized in this country alot longer than GWPs. They've had time to get their coats right. We will get them right.. so long as we all keep those goals.. along with bird sense and conformation ... in mind.

SilvarGWP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dualgwp
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
Location: New Hope PA

PostPosted: 04/16/03, 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our Badministrator is right on. Correct coats is so important in the breed, but not the only important thing in the breed.

Breeding a line of great coats wouldn't be all the difficult, if,,,, we didn't have to worry about, conformation, temperment, birdiness, water work etc., etc.

I'm not sure if trying to get the great coat is the toughest thing to achieve, but it's right up there on the list!

For me, I'll give a bit on coat to get all of the other things right. I can breed back to correct coats, but fixing birdiness, tracking, water, temperment.... those things I think are even harder to keep consistent. Consistency.... now there's a key word that makes this breed difficult to produce.

Wires, gotta love me... or else you will go nuts trying to breed me right!
Bernee
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index -> General Chat All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group