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showing dominant behavior with younger dogs aka puppy hater

 
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katababa
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PostPosted: 04/24/06, 5:01 pm    Post subject: showing dominant behavior with younger dogs aka puppy hater Reply with quote

Hi,
It's me and I'm back again
Toby is driving me bozankas for the moment being, he's 3 weeks shy of a year and for the last month a half he has been showing dominance toward anything younger than him, he usually lies on top of the puppy and growls, never touches the dog, just sounds pretty vicious . . .
how do i get him to stop? i live in the city and this is unacceptable behavior for the park and such. He is unneutered and the humping is not really an issue . . .

the dogwalker called me today and on one of his daytrips he picked two fights with 2 older dogs, this is a first, as he usually only harrasses and beats up puppies . ..
any suggestions??
we are currently in obedience training with a very NO bs trainer but his philosophy is to separate him from coming into contact with puppies, however that is not always possible . . . .

please help!!
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 04/24/06, 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this dog is showing his age, exuberance and lack of social experience. Social, meaning, lack of pack type experience.

He is doing what his hormones are telling him to do. He is being a dog, a male, unnuetered dog. Nothing unusual about that!

If you intend to keep him intact, his play days with a "gang" may be over. Or, you find someone very savy in understanding what dogs are saying to each other with this behaviour. Some intact males can and do play well with others, but you have to always be watching... ALWAYS!

If you are not going to use him at stud (which by the way, very very very few dogs ever get used for), get him nuetered now. It may, may, change his need to be the dominate dog. It may not....and then you still may have to keep his play mates on the short list.

He is at the age where position is everything, social position that is! He is a dog, and that is what dogs do.
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Jon
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PostPosted: 04/24/06, 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in a dog pack it is the dominant male and female that initiate or indicate when any aggression should take place.

Young males that make shows of aggression should be immediately corrected and be put in a submissive position by the owner. I have had great success with this. They may show that they want to be aggressive but they submit to my dominance, much as they would do in a pack situation as a minor male. I do not allow dogs to just run up to any dog that may approach us-ALL my dogs are trained to return to heel when another dog approaches. This is not difficult-it is a simple trained response. They normally stop-indicate that a dog is approaching-and I whistle them to heel. It puts me in control and avoids the bad habits of other dogs as well, especially little "num-nums" that like to yap and snap.

When hunting, they could care less what other dog is in the field!!!!
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 04/25/06, 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When one is dealing with their own dog that is exactly what should be done. The dog needs to learn who is in charge.

This however is a situation where the dog is in the charge of a dog walker with a group of dogs. Hopefully this is the tactic the dog walker should be taking with this youngster, he needs to learn it's not acceptable behaviour.

But it's not abnormal behaviour for a year old, non nuetered male dog. If this dog is not going to be neuterred, he may not be a good candidate for group outings and play.
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katababa
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PostPosted: 04/25/06, 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

we're talking about a puppy that has been socialized since he was 8 week old with other dogs and just because he's not neutered, he's now not going to be able to play with other dogs?

isn't that sort of limiting? too much emphasis on the fact that he's not neutered, cause in the end that is the natural state of animals . . .
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Jay-Mar's GWP's
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PostPosted: 05/02/06, 6:10 pm    Post subject: dog being aggressive toward puppies Reply with quote

first suggestion....nueter him!!!
this will absolutely shut down the hormones and at least give you a chance to curb some of his behaviors
it sounds like he has way too much testostrone and he really needs to be nueterd as well as some strong controls over his behavior.
He should be in limited contact with other dogs until he is inder more control about his behavior.
The more he is "allowed to get away with this", the more ingrained the behavior becomes.
I have an 18 month old un-nuetered male who I am alway in complete control of..he is a show dog and has a lot of testosterone.....I will not let him intract with other dogs unless I am right there and he is really listening to me..if he is going to blow me off over even a simple command, he gets no priveleges.
You might want to read books on training using the theory that NILIF..nothing in life is free
books such as Ruff Love by Susan Garrett..or Cesar Milan's new book will help you understand better your participation in this behavior and how to address it
good luck..make wires can be a challenge but are smart enough to learn their limits if they have owners who place those limits on them
Nikki
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Illona
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PostPosted: 10/28/06, 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

katababa wrote:
we're talking about a puppy that has been socialized since he was 8 week old with other dogs and just because he's not neutered, he's now not going to be able to play with other dogs?

isn't that sort of limiting? too much emphasis on the fact that he's not neutered, cause in the end that is the natural state of animals . . .


katababa, if you're determined to keep you boy intact, you will most certainly be limited in where you can take him and what you can expect from him in re. to other dogs. when you say "that is the natural state of animals" and if you intend to keep him in this "natural state" then you must be prepared for the dog to ACT as per his "natural state"...and that is to gain dominance as his instincts dictate. if you take those raging hormones away from him, you can bring your expectations up a little in regards to his social abilities because you've elminated a huge driving force in his instincts.

i think breed plays into this a little as well, as my GWP girl was also socialized and now has fear issues with other dogs BECAUSE of that socialization....'socialization' isn't always necessarily "good"....you can have very negative fall-out. and when you add breed to the picture, GWPs - from everything i've experienced and read - can be aloof with other dogs. my girl would love to dominate every dog out there so that she no longer has to be afraid of them.....she's almost five and i still do weekly classes with her so that i can work her around other and firm up my working relationship with her and get her over her fear....teaching her that she can simply ignore other dogs.

you think you got it bad with a male? try a bitch! Smile

anyway, it's your call. but if you ARE determined to keep him in his 'natural state' you have to expect to act accordingly....and that - as others are pointing out - may not lend itself to being part of a 'gang'. my girl has her 'pack' and is awesome with the members and is the biggest pushover of all of them, but integrating her with any new dog takes a LOT of work.

illona
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Illona
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PostPosted: 10/28/06, 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh, and for what it's worth....my girl HATES puppies. to be honest, i think she could very easily seriously harm one if it weren't for the control i do have over her. left to her own devices, i think it would be pretty ugly.

illona
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RobertB
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PostPosted: 01/17/07, 12:13 am    Post subject: Puppy Aggession Reply with quote

Well, I searched for aggression thinking I might find something that fit and couldn't ask for a better sting of comments- here's the deal, my 3yr old intact male GWP has had a few instances of fighting with and picking on smaller dogs. By smaller I mean puppies but also younger male dogs. As mine is about 80 pounds this has caused some concerns because of the inability of the other dogs to anticipate the situation or defend themselves. The incidents have ranged from simply tossing around and scaring a tiny pup to outright attacking a young male Shepard. What makes this a little strange is that this is not a dominate dog, he pretty much tucks tail to any dominate dog unless they really try to invade his space or cause him harm. Some of this behavior I can chalk up to being territorial but not all of it fits that bill, mostly because the others are all neutered. Also note that this is pretty much an urban dog so most of these incidents have happened in dog park type environments but he's frequented those for 2 of his 3 years.
1- Going to neuter him, just never had reason to before.
2- ??

Because he's not dominate in a normal fashion I wonder if just the reduction in testosterone will do it or is he just crazy and needs to be kept away from all small dogs/puppies?
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Illona
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PostPosted: 01/17/07, 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i do hope others chime in, Robert, although i haven't found the list to be very active.

although i haven't dealt with an intact male myself (always neutered), i would hope that neutering would help. however, with him being 3 now, you've got some patterns already set ... even once you take out those hormones, he may still pick fights because he's learned to do this. neutering him sooner would - i think - certainly have helped the situation.

if he's picking on younger males and puppies, but tucking tail and runnnig from more equal adversaries, my opinion would be that he's got at least some fear issues but you've also got a bully on your hands. so when you ask what other steps you might take, i'd suggest three others beyond neutering...

(2) do everything to remind this boy that YOU are the pack leader....and i mean ALL the tricks (going through gates and doors first - always!, making him work for everything including his chow, when walking with him on leash he should always be beside or behind you...this isn't always easy at first but if every walk is done this way, trust me, within a couple of weeks the dog gets it....my girl was the worst puller on leash in the world, hauling 6' 200+ lb men around with a choke chain at 6 mos of age. but today she always walks at my side, never in the lead.

i'd say you need to establish full pack leadership...this way when you come down on him for a spat (or better yet, ask him NOT to), he'll get a clearer picture of why....YOU are the leader, and fighting isn't tolerated. he'll also probably start to feel more secure with you as his strong leader and not feel as though he needs to make a point with these other dogs since you'll protect him.

(3) and speaking of protection...i would stop going to dog parks. by putting him in that environment you are constantly asking him to form a pack with strange dogs...so he'll try to dominate younger ones and run from dominant ones. i feel very strongly (as a lot of trainers and behaviorists do) that dog parks can become a battleground, and i don't mean just fights. it's a place of stress, even when you're seeing playing....alot of dogs are constantly establishing their pack status, even in play, and it can make short work of a previously stable dog. my own girl is proof of that.

social interactions with dogs that you know and trust are awesome, but dog parks are unpredictable....and putting him in that environment on a regular basis is like asking him - each visit - to establish his position.

given everything i've learned about dog parks -- first-hand and second-hand -- you couldn't PAY me to take ANY dog to those parks.

(4) some more training would certainly benefit. even if you've done a series of obedience classes and you don't think you need them, they DO help. at 5 yrs of age, i've been taking my girl to classes again for the past year....she, in no way, NEEDS more obedience...she's wonderful...but in a controlled class environment she is learning to work around other dogs, to realize that they're not all out to get her...AND it continues to strengthen the bond between us.

i stopped taking my girl to the dogpark at 10 mos of age....she'd taken too many blows from other dogs...but even then it was too late....the damage was done. however, given the breed (and she's an urban GWP as well), i knew i had to answer her drives and her physical requirements. i had to edcuate myself pretty quickly in order to get this girl working reliably off-leash...i'm always looking for new trails to take her to where there won't be too many other dogs (since everyone believes their own dogs to be so absolutely friendly).

because i've got control of both my dogs, they get out on the trails 2-3 times a week (one to two hours at a time)....i also do leash walks with my girl, and training in a ball field where she'll also burn some steam with fetching.

in any setting - urban or country - a wirehaired pointer is definitely more dog than most people are accustomed to. their drives, their exercise needs, their mental needs, and their breed (which isn't always friendly towards other dogs) do not make them an ideal family pet, even though the CAN be. it takes work and a huge committment.

and yes, i would absolutely keep him away from small dogs and puppies. GWPs are hunting dogs and an attack or even a bullying on a small dog or pup would most likely result in shrieking...and then the prey drive kicks in. i saw it recently with my girl and my trainer's jack russell (who actually was the instigator)....my pointer went from defending herself from the JRT off to wanting to kill it when the little dog started shrieking like a dying rabbit. absolutely no damage was done, but if not for our intervention, it might have been nasty. don't kid yourself, GWPs are consumate and efficient killers. but again, more control over this boy will always help....in my opinion you can NEVER have enough control over your dog, and you can NEVER have too close a bond or be too definite a leader. they simply aren't a breed that should be left to their own devices....at least that's my experience.

illona
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RobertB
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PostPosted: 01/17/07, 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the note- from your comments I guess there is something I left out. The last incident with the young Shepard is what promted my post. He's my friends dog and 5 months old and 45lbs. Rode in the same car with us to the park and after about 20 minutes of playing (not even around my dog) hurt his leg. This started 2 minutes of loud crying where we all stopped and started looking at his leg. From behind us my dog came between 3 humans and grabbed him by the head (with the size difference it was actually his whole head and neck). From that point the 3 of us grabbed him and started yelling, pulling and punching him to get him off. This went on for a good 2 minutes. I hadn't seen him act like that with a dog before, like he forgot it was a dog or just really wanted to kill it. Funny thing- we all ended up cut, bleeding and out of breadth and the Shepard didn't have a scratch and went back to playing. Anyway I don't think I realized that prey drive and loud noise could make him turn on a regular sized dog like that...even with people around. Guess I'll take up hunting hogs if he wants to act that way.
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itsabetsy
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PostPosted: 01/17/07, 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Illona covered everything I was going to say, so I'll just emphasize that you are the most important factor in your dog's behavior.

I also can not speak with experience about intact males, but think about it, there are scads of unneutered male dogs that don't have issues with other dogs. Conversely, my neutered male springer spaniel does, or at least used to. Thanks to acquiring a GWP 10 months after adopting the springer, I learned about controlling dogs. The GWP, a female, tested my patience like no other dog I'd owned before. Heeding advice from those that know, I took control. Now, the GWP is the greatest dog ever and it is safe to take the springer among other dogs. Mind you, I will be forever vigilant with the springer; reminders about who's in charge keep situations free of worry. There are still some types of dogs that make my own fur stand up, so we don't even meet those dogs. I swear my dog is grateful that he can relax, now.

We don't do the dog park anymore, either. It was great when Clare, the GWP, was a puppy, when socializing and playing and learning to come were most important. Lewis, the springer, never cared for the park. Clare has a couple of neighbor doggie friends that come by for playtime, but we all prefer our hikes in the woods, even me so I'm not just standing around.

Good luck. Hope to hear good news from you.

Betsy
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katababa
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PostPosted: 01/17/07, 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I'd chime in since I was posted the original problem, and i guess it's time for the update and pass the torch of puppy hating knowledge. First of all, my currently 20 mo male gwp is neutered. I won't make a statement that it changed everything, but I wanted to alleviate any triggers that he might have. We are still in the phase where he still has testosterone in him, but there is a change. This could however also be from the fact that we are climbing out of his "teenage" years. I also noticed that neutered males tended to "attack" him more.

I read your second post about yelling and screaming, and my suggestion would be first off to remain calm. Your energy feeds your dogs energy. if you squeel you get them excited, if you remain calm, they are more like to remain calm. I have learned that most gwp males don't like puppies, that's just the fact of life; how much they tolerate is a question of self control that the dog has learned to have. I would not be surprised if your dog now dislikes this puppy even more because of the fiasco that centered around it. Please don't set him up for failure. If you do not have him under your control 100% then work on it till you do. IF you'd like more freedom, invest in an ecollar and have someone who knows what they are doing show you how to use it.

Also, it is not the grown dogs "fault" Puppies are rude, obnoxious and need to be taught manners. In my dealings with gwps, they carry themselves very much in an entitled way. They are "entitled" to their respect, their space ect when it comes to other dogs. My dog is amazing with other dogs, will now tolerate puppies BUT i watch him for signs of stress and ect. To by punching him for 2 min, I can't even imagine. I'm imagining a fight with a pitbull. If it is just a dominance thing, he will not hurt the puppy, just teach him manners. (however, don't take the chance)

you said he shys away from bigger dogs, you have to work on his "confidence". Insecure dogs tend to be bigger bullies. Give him a job to do. The easiest way to do that would be to buy a dog backpack in petsmart and fill it evenly with water bottles. put it on him when you walk and you will see such a difference.

If you remain calm and confident, this dog will look to you to see how to act. be firm, benevolent, consistent leader and most issues in my opionion will clear up.

i also found this website helpful, this article is great, others are very informative.

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html

and if you don't plan to breed him/show him, i say neuter him.
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katababa
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PostPosted: 01/17/07, 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgot to add, if he engages in such behavior, you make sure that he knows it's not acceptable. i think once or twice grabbing him by the scruff and giving him a little shake while saying a firm no/bad should deter him from continuing
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