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GWP MH/SH Water Test Requirement
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gundogguru
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PostPosted: 05/26/03, 7:00 pm    Post subject: Water test Reply with quote

Howdy ya'll great site I have been in the GWP world for 11 years. I had a CH MH that I trained and handled and train as a semi Pro. This water test is going to ba a real PAIN for use in the south. We have a real Gator problem down hear. there is a local Weim club that does a water test does any body know if you can take a GWP to there test to get a leg? Thanks
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Vom Britt
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PostPosted: 05/26/03, 7:32 pm    Post subject: Water test Reply with quote

One more question for discussion only. Let's say I enter my GSP in a GWP sanctioned water test and she passes. Will the AKC recognize her pass?

Wecome aboard Gundogguru! The GWP's we breed up nort in WI. would bring back that o'll gator to hand except for Birdhunters Wink
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Vom Britt
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PostPosted: 06/20/03, 1:01 pm    Post subject: My first GWPC & AKC water test Reply with quote

was a lot of fun. To begin with, it was at the end of a day (6:00) with the temps. in the 80's. My observation was the water test was enjoyed by all who watched, I believe 21 dogs participated. We watched one dog dive and stay underwater trying to find the pigeon and GWP's who obviously have had limited exposure to water, and also more seasoned water dogs. I especially liked watching those dogs who had never been in water. Watching these dogs with so much desire for retrieve of birds that it over came their lack of water skills brought a smile to my face more than once. In short the water test was not difficult and the greater majority passed, leading me to believe the versatility is there in the AKC wire.
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 07/21/03, 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,

This water test has little to do with versatility other than to show that the dog will enter the water. Versatile trainers generally will have 10-12 week old pups bringing a thrown bird to the shore. The good versatile dog is defined by his temperament and willingness to be obedient in all phases of hunting - not just by his instinctive behavior. This test is a good start - that's about all.
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Vom Britt
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PostPosted: 07/21/03, 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon, what I mentioned was that I believe the versatility was there in most of those dogs. Brought out, of course not but I believe the majority of those dogs could play the versatile games if the handler/owner chose to do so. My first good dog a GSP with a pedigree laced on both sides with FC, AFC, NFC could play the NAVHDA Utility game as well as any dog in our chapter because she has an intense desire to find and yes retrieve birds. Give me a puppy with those two qualities and I don't give a hoot if it came from the best DD, DK or the field trial community lines, that pup will be able to play the NAVHDA game and become a versatile hunting dog.
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 07/21/03, 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe you are right - that there are good undiscovered versatile dogs within the various breed groups. The difficulty is always which undiscovered and unproven dog do you take a chance on in a breeding program. As time goes on, folks will find out that field dogs will not preserve versatile traits and instincts. If FC, AFC, and other FT titles conferred versatility, than Pointers would be the ultimate versatile dog - and as we know they are not. IMO, you get versatile dogs by selecting dogs for versatile abilities and the mental stability to take the training and demands of versatile work - land, water, fur, feather, tracking, retrieving, etc. Without a group of folks dedicated to identifying good versatile breeding stock and creating a good genepool, you don't get far.
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 07/22/03, 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't believe a dog needs mental stability to achieve a FC then you really don't understand these dogs at all. To become a FC, a dog needs to be the best, to defeat other dogs over and over and over again. The versatile testing program is different, they don't have to be the best, they can be adequate, as long as they fulfil the necassary requirements, do it great, or do it ok, and the dog can pass.And they only have to do it right once. Not over and over and over again. There is a place for both venues, and each shows different things about the dogs.

GWP's are not Pointers, their trials are very different, their goals and expectations different. Those who are always trying to lump the two together simply do not know what they are talking about. In fact, they are so different, that AF pointers, whether cross registered or not do not come to AKC trials for the most part. We simply do not, and for the most part, cannot compete with those dogs. And we shouldn't.

If you look into the pedigrees of many of the serious "versatile" breeders out there, they are sprinkled with many of our great FC's of the past. Hmmm, wonder why? Could it be that those FC had something to give that was needed in the breed?

Are FC's in this breed UTI dogs? None to date that I know of, obviously thier owners either don't have the time, desire, or the money to do it. Should they? I wouldn't be so arrogent to tell them they should anymore than I would tell UTI owners their dogs need to be FC's to be worthy.

Is the water test a huge achievement? Believe it or not, it is! Simple a test as it is, it took the club almost 3 years to get it by AKC. We are the ONLY breed that requires our advanced hunting test titled dogs to do any sort of water work. To me, this is a step in the right direction and with luck and time will be expanded in the future. Is it a pain for some folks to go and find a test? Yes, apparently it will be. But, if you want a MH title on your GWP, you will have to find a water test. It would have been great if AKC would have allowed us to use the NAVHDA NA test to count, but different registries and that sort of thing. A Weim water test held at one of their field trials will count.



I hope GWP owners and serious breeders don't go to the VDD board and make broad based uninformed statements.It sure will make you look foolish and like you have a vendetta of some sort.
Running down another persons passions doesn't promote your goals, in fact, it probably does just the oppposite.

Go do things with your dogs, have fun and don't let the naysayers stop you!
Bernee
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 07/22/03, 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bernee,

I don't believe I "ran down" anyone's agenda. But anyone who is honest will admit that this water test is not an indication of a dog's usefulness (versatility) in real life waterfowling situations. The water component of the NA test is a "laugher" to most half serious performance dog owners. Looking at the other side, it is a tragedy that there are GWPs that don't pass such a test. This water test is not a huge achievement - you have asked for little from the dogs and that's what you will get. An MH should require much more water work than this. The reason that FT dogs don't excel in versatile venues is because its just way harder than you think it is - bluntly put, most of these dogs can't do it. They no longer have the temperament to accomplish the work at highest levels. Huge desire and run - but tough to control when it comes to the obedience and reliability. Of course there always exceptions.

I have always said that FT dogs are needed for the genepool. But, I continue to ask where the versatile dogs are and who has committed to maintaining those performance traits and standards. You may belittle the UT test, but the results of EVERY test are there for the reading by all who care. An FT dog may blow out birds 50 times and still become an FC. But if a UT dog busts birds, you'll see it in the scores for all to read. You make the mistake of comparing the two - one is a title and the other is an evaluation. One system limits participation to a few - the other has a place and opportunity for all.

The idea that it takes great time and money to train a versatile dog is ludicrous - folks spend far, far more on FT and show expenses(I grew up in a show kennel). I can train a UT dog handily on what FT folks spend for their ATV (never mind the horses and the trailer) and have enough left for a hunting trip and a new gun in the fall. Further, as I have always said, the FT game is a sport for the well heeled and the priviledged and is not an activity that the broad ownership can participate in. Fine if you want to pursue it, but it has become far too important within the National club.

I will watch 200 dogs at this years Hegewald do water retrieves, blind retrieves and duck searches - all young dogs between the ages of 14-24 months. Without passing this water work, dogs are not admitted to the breeding pool in Germany. Its a far cry from the "20 yd chicken toss".
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 07/22/03, 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"the FT game is a sport for the well heeled and the priviledged and is not an activity that the broad
ownership can participate in. "

I would love to continue this ludicris discussion, but my bon-bons are melting in the heat, and my personal dog trainer needs my direction. Oh yes, my Jag needs to be taken to the garage by the chaufer as well. Just not enough hours in the day to get it all done. Gotta run, my beautician just knocked on the door and my diamonds need polishing.

Ah, the life of the rich and well heeled field trialer!
Bernee
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 07/22/03, 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you eating those bon-bons in the house or in the travel trailer? or perhaps on horseback on the back acreage? Smile
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