German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America
AKC Parent Club for the German Wirehaired Pointer
 
 ForumForum FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
 gwpca bulletin boardGWPCA Home Page   gwpca bulletin boardBulletin Board   gwpca bulletin boardGWPCA Rescue Page 

Wirehairs vs. Drahthaars clarification
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index -> General Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jon
Guest





PostPosted: 04/03/06, 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are we always discussing the fringe nutcases? The two dogs were registered DDs-the resulting pups will not be and they will be banned from breeding (Zuchtverbot) within the VDD because of the incestuous breeding and the fact that the parents didn't reach breeding qualification. What you call them is up to you but in the VDD, a dog is a DD by registration AND qualification-the paper is not enough. Each generation must earn the right to be bred and continue to be registered. Dogs that leave the registry, the system of qualification and are then bred, are no longer considered to be DD. I know this is hard for some folks to understand. These dogs are genetically "dead" and can only go out of registry.

These two registries have different approaches to maintaining what is important to their memberships. The VDD has been successful basing the breed on registration AND evaluation for over 100 years. It has maintained one comprehensive system of evaluation(not competitve best dog of the day events) rather than split into different factions, each with its own priorities. 11,000 members worldwide seem to approve this approach not to mention the other 14 nations in the world DD federation. It amazes me that the AKC GWP community is so free with its criticism of a vastly larger registry and system with a proven track record, which few seem to understand.

There are excellent dogs in both organizations, that have chosen to take different approaches. I should think that the recent explosion of the DD in North America could only be positive for the working GWP as well.
Back to top
MochaJava
Member
Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Pa.

PostPosted: 04/03/06, 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So a dog whose parents are both Deutch Drahthaars may not be a Deutch Drahthaar? Then Deutch Drahthaar must not be a breed: (n. 1. A group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics, especially a group within a species developed by artificial selection and maintained by controlled propagation). http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dict.asp?Word=breed

If they are not a breed -- what are they?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
whiskerdog1
Master
Master


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt

PostPosted: 04/03/06, 12:58 pm    Post subject: DD Reply with quote

Guys it isnt that tough.
The club has strict registration/breeding guidelines.
My buddys male knocked up his bitch accidently-who hadnt yet been breeding certified, only vjp(NA) tesed. Pups cannot be registered by the club as DDs-end of story. Things like this happen. Doesnt seem fair, but "thats the rules", and if you are a member youre expected to adhere to the guidelines. (Next time around, he wont trust the dog watching to his young son.)
All dogs must be tested to be breed certified, and all pups must be registered from certified/tested dogs. If it fails in this regard, the dogs cannot be registered. Still can be hunted-still can be good dogs, and can be registered with another registry, but not the VDD. These rules are set in place for a reason and serve a purpose. Not all agree with the logic and thats ok. This eliminates alot of careless and nondiscretionary breeding.
_________________
Real men hunt Wire Dogs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jon
Guest





PostPosted: 04/03/06, 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quibble as you wish-but as far as the VDD goes, dogs bred outside the breeding and performance evaluations are no longer DD. The point is that being called a DD is not only grounded in a piece of paper but also in qualification/evaluation. It takes both-that's all. The qualifications are the same for everyone and every dog. All breeding stock must be breeding qualified. Every pup starts out with a VDD Ahnentafel (pedigree) but its offspring will only be recognized as DDs if it reaches breeding qualification and is bred to a qualified stud dog (BTW-just to dispel another misunderstanding---you get to pick your own qualified stud dog - no approval is necessary).

I understand your point but the advantages of this system are pretty obvious. Breeding pets, show dogs, untested dogs, dogs with no physical, genetic, etc evaluations practically never occurs. Doesn't mean that all dogs are super dogs, just that the whole organization is on the same page as far as purpose, goals methods and standards. Unofficially it has created a competition to produce dogs that best meet the aims and goals of the organization (has also kept nearly all these dogs in the hands of hardcore hunters). A huge, qualified genepool of dogs has resulted that have all been evaluated in the same manner. Decades of data and results are open to the breeding community. In reality, the VDD breeding community is only interested in qualified dogs (and the years of data behind them)-the dogs that leave the system are unimportant. Just so the list understands, even a pup from one of the many other DD Federation countries would have to qualify for breeding status in Germany before any offspring would be recognized.

Don't know why this concept offends you but dogs that are not recognized by the VDD are not considered to be DD. This has had great advantages over the years and gives the parent club influence over the breed (through the consensus of its members) to regulate breeding through qualification rather than just a right conferred by registration. This concept is embraced by many countries where breed clubs have true dominion over their breed. AKC clubs don't have control over the breeds and rely on the good judgement and intentions of their members to preserve their various breeds. There isn't as much freedom in the VDD (although far more than folks think) but the members take pride in their dogs earning the right to be called DDs. Thousands of dogs are tested and evaluated every year and hundreds earn breeding status. Its just accepted.
Back to top
MochaJava
Member
Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Pa.

PostPosted: 04/04/06, 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Wirehairs vs. Drahthaars clarification Reply with quote

FCShorthairs wrote:

So at this point I was totally confused. He went on to explain that being a member of the "Deutsch Drahthaar" club holds them to different standards than a Wirehair, making them a different dog.
In short, I told him he was cracked.
I told him I figured a rose by any other name was still a rose. A dog with the same name and subspecies does'nt change just because of the language you speak it in.
So tell me whats up with this?


So we're back to where we were a year ago (this quote is from the original post). Some of you willfully ignore the difference between a breed and a breed organization. That's why your arguments seem silly and worse to a non-cult member.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jon
Senior
Senior


Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 117

PostPosted: 04/04/06, 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There has been no argument, just an explanantion of the way another system works. I can't help if you have problems with it. Why is it so important to you that the VDD do things your way-or think like you?
Seems silly to me. I think I read on another thread somewhere that the sled dogs in Alaska are also "sled" dogs by qualification, not just registry.

As many know, I owned and had reasonable success with GWPs for many years. However, there can be little doubt that the GWP has become in large part a sub species of the original breed. A large part of the breed is focused on field work and competitive showing-coats and coloration are different-there is an overall size difference and most importantly completely different breeding requirements. Relatively few GWP breeders demand full versatile ability as a prerequisite for their breeding programs. Among GWP folk, there has been very little contact with or even interest in the DD over the many years I had been involved. I don't regard that as wrong but how could this not result in a different direction for the breed? The AKC club has chosen to redefine the breed according to its likes and needs. The AKC itself is probably largely responsible for the direction the breed has taken. After all, an AKC club is bound to the activities that the AKC offers. The club has written a standard to its likes the membership has decided for itself what shall be important for the breed which differs in large part from the DD world. That's fact-and nothing can change that. Of course there are dogs that can do all the work of either organization, but in the broad overview that is not the focus of the GWP or the interest of its members.

It shouldn't be a revelation that the VDD and its members wish to seperate themselves from what the AKC club has done with the breed. The subject of the GWP (in the US, England, Australia, etc) has been noticed by the DD Federation it has chosen to make Deutsch Drahthaar the name to be used when referring to the breed. It wants to make it clear that a DD is such by registry and qualification and different from a GWP. It is proud of the total commitment to the versatile dog.

This does not make all GWPs bad nor all DDs super dogs. But the names clearly delineate the origins of the dogs, of which both groups should be proud. I think both groups are very content with the status quo. They are both thriving and there seems to be more than enough appreciation for what each group is doing. But, please, to tell the VDD and its members by what method they shall name its dogs is a little bit like the tail wagging the dog, isn't it? I mean the GWP is tiny in numbers compared to the DD world. Besides, you're not cut off-pick up the phone like the rest of us-you can talk to breeders in Germany-more than a few speak English. I'm betting you aren't in the least interested because its not the dog you want anyway-and that proves to me that even you think there is a difference. Be content with what you have done with the breed.
However, when a GWP kennel advertises they sell Drahthaars, its a lie. DD are such by registration and JGHV qualification - whether you agree with it or not.

Please have the last word and please notice that I'm not putting anyone (or dog) down, nor am I arguing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
MochaJava
Member
Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Pa.

PostPosted: 04/04/06, 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I will have the last word (hopefully):

Quote:
However, when a GWP kennel advertises they sell Drahthaars, its a lie. DD are such by registration and JGHV qualification - whether you agree with it or not.


For a person who willfully refuses to distinguish between a breed of dogs and breed organizations of humans, the word "lie" coming out of your mouth is laughable. The original poster was correct!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
whiskerdog1
Master
Master


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt

PostPosted: 04/05/06, 9:45 am    Post subject: DD/GWP Reply with quote

I dont see this topic ever reaching full agreement or understanding, its a dead horse.
I do see both sides of the issue, I know a few GWP owners and have batted it around with them. Usually, once they understand the testing/training/breed certification and committment involved-they are happy to call their dogs GWPs, and let me call mine DDs. Theres no animosity, were friends-dogs play together etc. Id say Im alot more committed to hunting and training than they will ever be. Its a mindset, its also registration and testing issue. Two clubs, two registries, two standards(one allows, 1 disqualifies black/white color) one requires breeding certification, one doesnt.
I have no problem with anyone that wishes to dual registers a dog-the more exposure, testing, trialing is good for both breeds as it were, although I think that the AKC sponsored hunt tests dont offer near the degree of challenge and difficulty as the VDD. As a sideline-it does look like fun though.
Ive met a few Am. Staff folks. Immediately-they they refer to their dogs as Amstaffs, not American Pitbull Terriers or Pits (UKC). They maintain a distinct and separate ideal and promote a "different breed"a more civilized, trainable, pitbull really. This is an analagy-maybe not a good one-but 1 for lack of anything better. I wont go as far as to say that the breeds are separate, I dont believe it. Ive recently involved myself in Schutzhund. Almost all are competing with import Shepherds-the American dogs are too bred down and lack certain traits necessary to work at a high level, if at all. The dogs are different in many respects-again I dont think them different breeds visually, but from a performance standpoint-its pretty evident, moreso at protection work than tracking and obedience. Im sorry if I come off as snobby-I dont mean to be at all. I will proudly call my dog whatever the registration papers call it. I like GWPs/GSPs and other AKC dogs, I grew up with them. Personally, work performance is the ultimate criteria for me. When breeds were developed-dog "shows" werent offered, encouraged or promoted in Germany. Seems to be a 20th century English/American phenomenom for the rich and famous. The results speak for themselves. I wouldnt be critical if a dog was a field or performance proven as a qualifier. Sorry to digress. Stand by your breed, work to improve it and be proud of it and the progress you make.
_________________
Real men hunt Wire Dogs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jennyh
Member
Member


Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Wasilla, Alaska

PostPosted: 04/05/06, 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I live in Alaska, there are not very many dog events or tests held up here but I do enjoy testing my VDD dogs with the local NAHRA Club so I thought why not try the pointing tests to? So I asked the local AKC Pointing Dog Club last summer if I could test my Drahthaar Gabby in MH. They said no. Then one member suggested I enter Foriegn Breed on the test application, I would have to send AKC 50.00 and then have 30 days to get her registered so I filled out the test application sent the money and entered her in the MH test and passed. It was fun.

I wanted to enter the next month to so I called AKC and asked if I could and the woman transfered me to her Supervisor who was furious!! She told me that "that dog" should never have even been allowed to test at all, she was hollaring at me for even entering the test. (I think she got even madder when I told her my VDD dog passed) She said they would be sending my 50.00 back immediatly and she would be getting in touch with the AKC Pointing Dog Club about this right away and tell them they should never have accepted my test application as a Foriegn Breed because the dog cannot be registered with AKC in any way shape or form.

So why does the GWP Breed Club logo have Drahthaar written on the bottom half? This logo for the GWPCA is misleading and incorrect. (I imagine this photo or drawing was taken from the VDD also.)

Jenny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
trackindog
Senior
Senior


Joined: 20 May 2003
Posts: 87
Location: Minneapolis, MN

PostPosted: 04/05/06, 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being new to the GWP and DD I can't answer much with any authority but have found it curious for those who appear to be very much against the GWP that they are even joining and posting on this GWPCA site. For what purpose? If I had no interest in the GWP I wouldn't bother with this.

My response though is to Jenny who entered her dog in an AKC event. Your DD would be more than eligible to compete under an AKC ILP number. All you had to do was simply fill out the form and send in a pic of your dog and have it registered with the AKC as a GWP. It's as easy as that.

My guess is that the AKC was upset that you entered a non-registered dog in one of their tests. Which makes perfect sense for any registry not just the AKC. This is no different than registering an AKC dog with the Canadian Kennel Club. It is simply a different registry for entering events.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
jennyh
Member
Member


Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Wasilla, Alaska

PostPosted: 04/05/06, 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trackindog wrote:


My response though is to Jenny who entered her dog in an AKC event. Your DD would be more than eligible to compete under an AKC ILP number. All you had to do was simply fill out the form and send in a pic of your dog and have it registered with the AKC as a GWP. It's as easy as that.


No, you are wrong. A ILP is for spayed or netured dogs. A intact Drahthaar can not be AKC registered, it's as simple as that.

I only posted here because a photo of my Drahthaar was being used as the pointing dog for GWP rescue.
Jenny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Deb Finstad
Junior
Junior


Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 71
Location: Minneapolis, MN

PostPosted: 04/05/06, 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A intact Drahthaar can not be AKC registered, it's as simple as that.


It can be done and I believe the link to registering an intact DD with the AKC is the FDSB (Field Dog Stud Book). Since I've never done it I'm not sure of the exact process. I know the FDSB recognizes NAVHDA registrations & I believe also the VDD's (since you have a UT 204 Prize I on your dog she would be registered with NAVHDA so it doesn't matter in this case) so you would register with them. The AKC recognizes the FDSB and, therefore, would register your dog as a GWP so you can run in AKC events.

It is a bunch of busy work but it can be done.

Deb

PS - Here's the area of the AKC site that explains what registries they'll accept.

http://www.akc.org/reg/open_registration.cfm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jennyh
Member
Member


Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Wasilla, Alaska

PostPosted: 04/05/06, 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobby Applegate at NAVHDA says it can't be done because they don't have a breed standard with their registry.

Besides that, if I wanted a AKC Registered dog I would go buy one.


Last edited by jennyh on 04/05/06, 2:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
whiskerdog1
Master
Master


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt

PostPosted: 04/05/06, 2:27 pm    Post subject: DD/GWPs Reply with quote

Brings up a point. I could be wrong-correct me if so, I thought that a DD could become AKC registered as long as you went through the normal process. Am I wrong. I have no interest in it.but was my understanding.
Or must the dog be imported and then Dual registered at that point? Help.

My interest on this site is related to my passion, that of hunting dogs. I frequent other sites besides this including GSPCA, WPGCA, Leerburg, to name a few, to stay current/informational purposes etc. I use it educationally and add input occasionallly.
But, I feel like a stepchild after that lashing I (we) was given! I have nothing against GWPs/owners etc. my viewpoit has always been consisent. These are hunting dogs. The emphasis should be hunting first. Any other extracurriculars are fine. But hunting ability shouldnt take a back seat to other interest: showing/pet,agility etc. I feel this way about all working and hunting dogs. sorry if it offends.
_________________
Real men hunt Wire Dogs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
MochaJava
Member
Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Pa.

PostPosted: 04/05/06, 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I only posted here because a photo of my Drahthaar was being used as the pointing dog for GWP rescue.


Sue 'em!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index -> General Chat All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 5 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group