German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America
AKC Parent Club for the German Wirehaired Pointer
 
 ForumForum FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
 gwpca bulletin boardGWPCA Home Page   gwpca bulletin boardBulletin Board   gwpca bulletin boardGWPCA Rescue Page 

Wirehairs vs. Drahthaars clarification
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index -> General Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jon
Guest





PostPosted: 03/09/06, 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The real shame about all these boards is that folks run around proclaiming fact based on exceptions. In this case, Browndog, you're broadcasting a generality based on hearsay from one source.

Have some integrity, do your own homework and use some common sense. The average litter size for 2004 was over 7 puppies/litter-these are pups that were raised, tattoed and registered (451 litters-3371 puppies). This is probably no different than any AKC sporting breed.
Use your head-figure it out. If so many folks were putting dogs in the bucket, don't you think these figures would look different? What was the average for AKC GWPs? If its not significantly higher, wouldn't that mean that these folks were also "bucketing" their pups?

Its easy to repeat gossip and run with the crowd-far better when you figure things out for yourself.
Back to top
whiskerdog1
Master
Master


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt

PostPosted: 03/09/06, 10:10 pm    Post subject: DD/GWP Reply with quote

Browndog,
Theres no way one can definitively gauge all of the natural instincts at 6-8 weeks to determine ability. Its just too young. Also, training and environment plays a role in a dogs development. However,For serious hunting work, theres no amount of training to compensate for poor genetics and breeding.
The only reason the VDD dogs are old with a guarantee to hunt is that the stock is hunt tested and used as hunters. Its no more complicated than that. Good dogs are bred. Poor ones/genetic defects arent. Many differnet lines/styles/sizes etc. The common denominator is that of hunting ability to include work in field, forest and on fur. An organization of hunters breeding hunting dogs. Its not real hard to understand. Far as I know, the only culling might be the natural kind ie letting mother nature allow the strong to survive, or a pup with severe defect.

Id venture a guess that a Navhda bred GWP litter would offer the same/similar guarantee. Hunters breeding hunting dogs. Other extracurriculars are fine, but I think this has to be the emphasis.
_________________
Real men hunt Wire Dogs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Browndog
Member
Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 22

PostPosted: 03/10/06, 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your replies. I agree with you both. My post that has caused some anger may have been misperceived or seen as a generalization, or an attempt to extrapulate one breeder to all breeders. I just pointed out '1 breeder' who unjustly culls pups at 8 weeks old if they do not show 'guaranteed' (LITERALLY!) hunting ability! You are, along with me pointing out the obvious for any dog at such a young age. You also can only purchase a pup from this breeder desexed (YES! AT 8 WEEKS OF AGE!). I am in no way extrapilating only one breeder's practise to every breeder in the entire dog world. I apologise if I have upset a few people. The point isn't DD vs GWP. The point is only how ludicrous one (and possibly from your replies the only) breeder goes to, to try and monopolize the thinking of prospective buyers of DD's, GWP's or any dog for that matter. That's why I chose not to fill out and sign the application form I was sent.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DDman
Member
Member


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: 03/14/06, 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got done reseraching pups about a year ago, and after contacting a ton of DD breeders, I never had anyone of them tell me that they cull pups.

Quite simply, why would they? A dog who has improper bite, temperment, or hunting abilities, is disqualified from breeding per the VDD. There was a breeder who had a young pup with a young pup that was going to have a bad bite that sold it at a reduced price due to it's conformation issues, the pup can never be used for breeding. In the VDD system, a dog cannot be bred without having the proper testing and confiramtion tests completed, so no real need to cull The bad ones can't be bred in the first place.

Is there a difference between the GWP and the DD? Yes, most likely so. Probably in the fur drive and blood tracking abilitiesIt. If you do not breed for it, you lose it, or at least you lose the ability to consistently produce it. How long does it take for the genes that make a good blood tracking dog get diluted? Probably not long. Look at the German Shepherd Dog..you have protection dogs, sport dogs, and show dogs. The same breed, but most sport dogs could not be protection dogs, and the show dogs most likely could not do either.

Of course there are individuals that maintain the traits, but consistency within the breed for a trait becomes diluted as those traits are NOT selected for.

So, are a GWP and a DD the same breed? Probably. Can the do the same types of work (in general amoung ALL representatives of the breed)? Probably not.

Also, I have seen mostly white GWP's and NEVER seen a mostly white DD, it is not heard of. Think some of the Field Trail guys tossed some EP blood in some of those lines? Hhmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Someone mentioned about dual registered dogs AKC and VDD. I checked into this myself and was told that once you register AKC with a DD, you cannot breed in the VDD system. DD kennels are barred from going to GWP bloodstock. So once you dual register a DD, you can no longer breed in the VDD.

I believe the Deutch Kurzhaar Club just adopted similar breeding regulations, so you will no longer see DK kennels going outside to GSPs. All dogs will be registered DK's and breeding with AKC dogs will be outlawed.

So, if the breeds are not already separate, they sure might be just by breeding practices sometime in the next fifty years or so.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trackindog
Senior
Senior


Joined: 20 May 2003
Posts: 87
Location: Minneapolis, MN

PostPosted: 03/15/06, 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>>>once you register AKC with a DD, you cannot breed in the VDD system. DD kennels are barred from going to GWP bloodstock. So once you dual register a DD, you can no longer breed in the VDD. <<

This is not what I have been told. Just because you cross register does not mean the dog will be bred with a GWP. It merely allows for more competitive venues to be accessed.

I was told that you can cross register them but you CANNOT breed a DD with a GWP. This part makes sense. Merely registering with the AKC does not mean that dog will be bred with a GWP - it only means that it can compete in field trials and hunt tests.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
DDman
Member
Member


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: 03/15/06, 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that the rules have changed. There are people who run AKC tests with their DD's, but do it under the foreign registration. The dog can run the test, but will not be give credit as per AKC titles.

The VDD does not want to have much of anything to do with AKC.

You can go to VDD-gna.org to find out for sure though. The DD folks are pretty self-policing.

I have also never seen a DD breeders website that touts Dual registered dogs. Again, I believe the DK just passed similar guidelines. No more dula registered dogs, and if you breed to AKC dogs, you are not eligible to breed DK's. I think this by-law just passed about six months ago.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trackindog
Senior
Senior


Joined: 20 May 2003
Posts: 87
Location: Minneapolis, MN

PostPosted: 03/16/06, 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info DDman - I will go to the website and check it out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jon
Guest





PostPosted: 03/16/06, 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't prevent dogs from crossing all the different "lines" created by man. IMO, you belong to an organization whether it is a club or registry because you feel comfortable there and believe in the purpose of the organization. Many DD's and offspring are in the AKC registry. The strength of the VDD is that 11,000+ members are more or less on the same page as to what the breed should do and how they should be bred.
For the most part, the organization (and members) diciplines itself. There is practically no "pet market" for DDs-which changes the whole outlook.

As an aside--What's really hilarious is trying to explain to a German that there are 6 different registries in North America - and that 5 of them have NO breeding requirements-that Cockapoos, Labradoodles and Great
S^%ts (cross between Great Dane and Shitzu!!-had to throw that in) command $1000 price tags.
Back to top
whiskerdog1
Master
Master


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt

PostPosted: 03/17/06, 8:56 pm    Post subject: DDs/GWPs Reply with quote

Jon,
Believe it or not Jon, I came up with that myself while thinking about dogs and while on the thrown. Thought it was funny then, as I do now. Actually, wonder if there would be a market for such titled dogs-A Great Sh*t. It would definately be an ice breaker, agreed? I have a sick mind I guess.
_________________
Real men hunt Wire Dogs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Flyingm
Member
Member


Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Fort Worth, TX

PostPosted: 03/17/06, 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many VDD-GNA whelped dogs that are registered with NAVHDA. If the VDD don't care about that why would they care if a particular dog was registered with AKC ,CKC, or UKC? I understand that breeding is a different story.

I believe the proposed breedings in the VDD-GNA have to be sent to a breed warden to verify if the proposed sire and dam are eligible to be bred. I think this practice is why the DD has become more and more popular in the U.S. In short it is a breed club sanctioned quality control.

However, that isn't to say that there aren't very dedicated breeders with very high standards practicing their own quality control here in the U.S. Regardless of the registry, one still has to do their homework to find a reputable breeder that they can trust, and breeds a dog that hunts the type of game they want to hunt.
_________________
Proud to be a Rakkasan!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jon
Guest





PostPosted: 03/17/06, 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything you say is true. The reason that DDs are registered in NAVHDA is because NAVHDA now requires dogs to be registered before they can be tested. Registrations are a main source of income for NAVHDA.

There ARE dedicated breeders here in the US. However, with so many different factions stressing their own particular interests or interpretations, it often becomes very difficult for breeders to find a broad genepool of dogs with the proven pedigrees and abilities they need. That is the downside of everyone in a breed "doing their own thing" and is especially noticeable in any breed with limited numbers.
Back to top
Browndog
Member
Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 22

PostPosted: 03/23/06, 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have since tried to contact the DD breeder I refered to in Oz (QLD). Now that we have uniform tail docking bans in Oz, this breeder has now ceased breeding and selling DD's. They are currenely introducing the stumpy tail cattle dog into the DD lines so that their DD's will 'eventually' breed the 'correct tail length' for the (DD) breed standard! Next thing you will have to pass an examination test on speaking German (or is it Deutch?). How they will be able to extract all trates of the stumpy tail cattle dog from their original breed is beyond me? Maybe this topic is off the original thread. Perhaps we should post on the DDCA, as opposed to the GWPCA site ? One thought came to mind. My God, maybe we are all taking ourselves too seriously?? Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jon
Guest





PostPosted: 03/23/06, 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This sounds like a gaff to me-first of all, the minute anyone crossbreeds a DD, the pups are not recognized by the FCI and certainly not by the VDD.
Sounds like you're talking about the fringe nut cases AGAIN and trying to make it sound like its the norm.

Your tree huggers have banned tail docking, heh? Its OK to cut a dog's testicles off though? What is the PC world coming too? Pretty soon we wan't be able to buy eggs to spare the poor hen's emotional distress from seperation syndrome!!! Laughing
Back to top
Browndog
Member
Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 22

PostPosted: 03/24/06, 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon,
I'm only talking about one extreme 'nutcase' as you put it. I have never referred to any other breeder. I am happy to pm you the breeder's website I'm referring to if you think I'm lying? And yes, I agree with your comments about our tree huggers promoting neutering yet have no qualms about banning tail docking! As for eggs, I woke up this morning and made myself scrambled eggs until later in the day I was reminded by a tree hugger that it was actually an abortion?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MochaJava
Member
Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Pa.

PostPosted: 04/03/06, 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A year has gone by and this thread is still alive!!!

Oh well, here's another little poser: an owner of two 3 month old properly registered DD puppies from the same litter (one male, one female) refuses to give any money to the parent organization. He later breeds the two dogs to each other.
What breed is the resulting offspring?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index -> General Chat All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 4 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group