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Wirehairs vs. Drahthaars clarification
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FCShorthairs
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PostPosted: 10/04/04, 1:48 pm    Post subject: Wirehairs vs. Drahthaars clarification Reply with quote

I've been breeding and competing Shorthairs for almost 20 years. So imagine my surprise at being told I don't know what I'm talking about. Now I certainly don't profess to know everything, as soon as you think you do, you stop learning. But I thought I knew a German Wirehair when I see one.

At the Idaho Pheasant Day youth hunt this past weekend I was running my dogs for the kids that our local Fish & Game bring out for a sponsored hunt. A fella came past me with a little "Wirehair" pup that a friend of mine reached down to pet. My friend asked the fella what breed the dog was and the fella replied "he's a Deutsch Drahthaar". My friend said he had never heard of that breed before so I told him he was a Wirehair (which of course he had heard of).

(here's a breif part of the conversation to show you why it was confusing)

The man then says, "no, he's a Drahthaar"
I replied, "that's what I said"
He said, "no, you called him a Wirehair"
and I said, "but so did you"
The man then said, "your missing my point, it's not a Wirehair, it's Drahthaar".
I told him, "one of us is confused, does'nt Drahthaar mean Wirehair in German"?
And he said, "it does, but they are two different breeds".

So at this point I was totally confused. He went on to explain that being a member of the "Deutsch Drahthaar" club holds them to different standards than a Wirehair, making them a different dog.

In short, I told him he was cracked.

I told him I figured a rose by any other name was still a rose. A dog with the same name and subspecies does'nt change just because of the language you speak it in.

So tell me whats up with this?
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Wireman
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PostPosted: 10/04/04, 7:11 pm    Post subject: Same Here! Reply with quote

I have ran into this problem more than once. I think it all boils down to which side of the fence you are sitting. Yes, they are the same breed. "Drahthaar" does mean wirehair. The only difference between the dogs is that the Drahthaars bitch and sire have had to undergo field tests before being aloud to breed. Now this doesn't make a "Drahthaar" (in my opinion) any better than any GWP. My little buddy (GWP) didn't have any problem pointing 5 woodcock tonight!

I got into this excact same conversation with a "Drahthaar" owner and he acted like he never heard of a GWP before. I tried to explain to him that they were the same breed and he went into coat differences among other things and I just kind of snickered and walked away.

Well, I hope this helped. You can also read about it on the GWPCA website under "All about the GWP" and then clicking on "Frequently Asked Questions about the GWP"

Good Luck!!
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ANGUS
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PostPosted: 10/08/04, 10:15 pm    Post subject: wirehair vs drath Reply with quote

You know I have the same problem to..my dogs fathers side is all Draths,so they get the name DD due to their passing their tests,,,the mother of my dog was born in Canada,,so she didn't go through the same testing...so I often get ,,how can he be from DD's when his was born here,,I have tried to explain,,but it just don't sink in......oh well...I know what I have,,,and he is a great dog........I am happy with that...
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 04/01/05, 7:07 pm    Post subject: German thing Reply with quote

I dont understand what being born in Canada has to do with testing. There is a Drahthaar Group in Canada just like the States. The difference in the breed(s)if you call it that is the TESTING-Hips, Coat/conformation, and Most importantly field tests: including Pointing, Tracking-yes tracking of fur and feather andblood, Retrieving, search, cooperation etc. It is extensive and in at the highest level a 2 day evaluation testing dog and owner alike. The committment in intense. The club requires this testing for any breeding purposes. It is stricter than any other breeding that I am aware of. Those that partake in it are proud of their dogs and have wonderful hunting dogs-arguably the most Versatile in the world.
Deutsch Drahthaars Cannot be in Dog Shows and are not AKC registerable. The dont wish to be. However, One can import a DD from Germany and Dual register them, but to the dismay of the Drahthaar club-they like what they have and want to keep it that way. Im not passing judgement here, but stating facts. I own a DD and have hunted over GWPs and have friends that own them. They tend to be more "Driven" and some can be a handful. They are sold to hunters only as a rule.
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ANGUS
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PostPosted: 04/02/05, 2:05 pm    Post subject: DD& GWP Reply with quote

I live on the west coast and there is very little testing here if any,,so to get my dog tested in the DD I would have to travel to far for my liking just to show others what my dog can do,,when I know myself that he is a great hunter and will work for me in any terrain ,on any animal ...at any time of the year....I still don't get why ppl think they are different,,,its the same breed ,,,,,maybe trained different..handled different,,but the same..
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 04/02/05, 3:20 pm    Post subject: Drahthaar Reply with quote

"maybe trained different..handled different,,but the same.."

Have to correct you here. They are not trained any differently, however the depth of work and testing involved, especially the tracking and retrieving is where I see differences between those bred for it, and those not. Its like asking any Irish Setter to hunt. It aint happening. Im in no way implying that the GWP cant hunt. But the DD is strictly bred and sold to hunters and tested for it in its breeding. Theres no dog shows and exaggerated conformation in the breeding including various colors allowed by the AKC.
The DD is expected to be versatile in the duck search including Blinds and Marks, tracking blood- at least 4 to 40 hrs old for finished dog, and fur rabbit and fox, and in the field on birds etc. .The Navhda group has done a nice job of testing its dogs, but the tests arent as strenuous, period. The VDD doesnt require that you test your dogs-breeders like to track scores to determine litter performance-living in CA doesnt mean you couldnt own a DD. Closest Testing is in ID and is 1 day deal. If your committment is strong, ppl do whats necessary if they wish to breed or test. Not saying you dont have a nice dog. The VDD is more of a breeders guild committed to putting out hunting dogs, period.
Best analogy, military and Police dogs are imported. There are few if any working bred Shepherds and Malinois bred in the states, suitable for the rigorous demands of life/death police and military work. Theyve become too bred down-bad hips, and lack temperment necessary. A field bred GWP is a nice dog and well suited in the fields for birds- mainly. There are a few lines capable of doing exceptional versatile work, but even then few if any are used for blood tracking deeror used by guides/ waterfowl hunters who make their living with their dogs, and serious bird hunters. Again these dogs are not shown, but are strictly bred to hunting and performance standards. Wash outs arent able to breed within the organization. Thats the difference as well as black roan or scharzschimmel being accepted by Vdd and not by the AKC. WHite is however accpted by AKC and not VDD-and often times means the dog has been cross bred to shorthairs or pointers.
Bottom line, if youre happy with your dog, thats all that matters!
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Jon
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PostPosted: 04/05/05, 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GWPs ARE GWPs by right of birth and registraton. DDs are DDs by right of performance and physical evaluation. A DD can only be "born" of dogs that have been recognized by the club and met breeding status. ALL DDs are tested and qualified ONLY as versatile dogs. There is no other kind of competitive or standard method of evaluation. Testing is not competitive - it is an evaluation against a standard of performance or the physical standard for the breed, which differs in many ways from the GWP standard. GWP members are free to reinterpret their breed as they wish and can breed any dog they wish. DD owner's can't. That said, the variety of DD within the VDD registry is very large and the quality of the genepool extremely good.

Approximately 90% of the world adheres to the Drahthaar standard and guidelines as outlined by the FCI. The US, England, and a few other countries do not.The AKC is not recognized by the FCI and therefore the GWP is not recognized as a DD by the world breed federation of clubs. The VDD, and its members who agree to its guidelines, maintains the DD ONLY as a versatile dog intended for hunting.
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Keith
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PostPosted: 04/05/05, 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is the same breed. One is just bred under a breed clubs supervision and by their standards. But the same breed.
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PostPosted: 04/05/05, 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All dogs are 99.9??% the same. The difference is the slection criteria and the priorities of the PEOPLE who breed them. I would say that is where the DD and the GWP differ the most. That selection criteria in DDs is based only on a dog's value as a working versatile dog. There are excellent dogs in both registries but the VDD has chosen to maintain a century long tradition as an organization whereas the GWPCA and its members chose what interests them individually. One organization is breed centered and the other is people centered. That is the reason there is such a large, excellent quality genepool of versatile dogs in the VDD. There is only one performance agenda - versatile working dogs. This may seem narrow minded to many but it has proven highly successful for the DD. As such, the VDD is a breeder's organization - dogs being bred and evaluated for its members and hunters.
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MochaJava
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PostPosted: 04/07/05, 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"In short, I told him he was cracked."

I often wonder which half of a dual registered dog is the GWP and which the Drahthaar?
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 04/07/05, 9:16 am    Post subject: GWP DD Reply with quote

DD owners cant show or AKC register their dog-which was bred and sold from hunters to hunters. How can that be a GWP IF I REVERSE this question? A Black roan dog cannot be registerd-even dual registered imported from Germany. How can that be a GWP?
Call your dog what it is and be proud. A GWP is a nice dog. It isnt a DD by virtue of its birth and registration. The DD is a registerd dog within its own organization, the VDD. Same ancestry, different paths once brought to the US.
Is the American Staffordshire Terrier the same as the American PitBull Terrier? THE AST folks say no-theirs is AKC registered, and acknowledge their dogs arent/cant be effective in the dogpit, theyve distanced themselves from APBT due to its reputation. One was/is performance bred. One is not and isnt used for its intended purpose-dogfighting, anymore, it doesnt have the gameness or other necessary qualities. Is the Irish Setter the same as the Red Setter-brought back/bred to hunt? One can argue semantics and striking similarities, but cant argue the excellent reputation of the DD as a hunting dog. All will hunt. All are bred for it, none are show dogs or bred for any other purpose than that. One rides the others coat tails so to speak. Its good marketing, but inaccurate in its analysis IMO.
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PostPosted: 04/07/05, 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand the controversey. It is possible to register a DD with the AKC so that GWP enthusiasts can do all the experimenting they want. Fact is, there is very little interest among most GWP breeders in the DD except those seriously interested in versatile dogs. This is understandable because that is the strength of the VDD. Over the past 50 years, there has been very little interest among the US breeders in German dogs. For the most part, these are two different registries that have gone in different directions, except for a small contingent of versatile dog enthusiasts in NAVHDA.

I agree that the GWP folks should be proud of what they have done with the breed. They have changed and adapted it to their likes and needs and pursued those hobbies that interest them. The DD is still the original and pursues steadfastly the intent and heritage of the breed and would probably not suit most AKC members.With so many GWP puppies every year (12-1400?), there should really be no need for German imports.
Without a thorough knowledge of breeders in Europe and the issues, I'm not sure it really makes a lot of sense to try to import what you don't know about.

The two organizations will continue to exist. I think folks will make their decision based on their activity and style of dog. The VDD is growing very fast (too fast some might say) because of the interest in versatile dogs. Those interested in dog shows, field trials, obedience, agility in addition to hunting, will probably seek out an AKC dog. Down deep, I think both groups like it this way and don't want it any differently.

BUT, whether AKC proponents like it or not, the GWP is not seen as a Drahthaar by Germany They can't be registered in the VDD, or bred.
The US may see it different, but they didn't create the breed - the German's did. In 1959, the club decided to go their own way so it shouldn't be surprising that the rest of the world doesn't see the GWP as being a Drahthaar.

I think folks should be happy with the dogs that they have. I'm in the VDD not because GWPs are bad, but because the folks in the VDD have the same priorities as I do - versatile work. I also find the style of dog that I like more often in that organization.
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PostPosted: 04/07/05, 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Jon and Whisker Dog,

Despite the volume of words issued, neither of you have addressed my question: if a dog is dual registered, which portion of that dog is a GWP and which portion is a Drahthaar?
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 04/07/05, 12:32 pm    Post subject: GWP Reply with quote

if a dog is dual registered, which portion of that dog is a GWP and which portion is a Drahthaar?"
#1. Id be curious to know just how many Dual registered dogs there are-my guess is few if any.
#2. I dont know why someone would decide to Dual. What benefit is there? Why buy a DD and register as a GWP? Why not just buy a GWP and be happy with said choice? 2 separate organizations committed to 2 different things(AKC, VDD)-as a sidenote, I wonder if Gamebred APBT breeders get the same grief from A.Staffordshire Terrier breeders and if they are interested in registering their performance line dogs as ASTs?.
#3. You can marginalize any way you wish, I would suggest that Duals be "portioned" as their owners see fit.
But since you ask... I would call the half that tracks, retrieves, sharp on fur and bird crazy the DD portion!!
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PostPosted: 04/07/05, 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how responsive your answer is, but in that vein -- my friend's French Brittany is all that and more. Does that make him a Drahthaar too?
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