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Water test questions???
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Tony
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KJ wrote:
If the GWP club wanted to use a NAVHDA UT for a 'water test' bad enough, couln't they find a way? Or maybe just sign off that they passed the water test if they passed the UT, I don't think anybody would be too upset.


While they're at it, they can sign off my Prize I UT dog as a MH! Rolling Eyes

IMO, NAVHDA covers the versatile qualities that most of us are looking for in a GWP, and having witnessed hundreds of braces of MH and SH as a gunner and handler, I would hate to imagine what kind of versatile test AKC would come up with.
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think without doubt the reason that we are discussing eventual water testing, advanced water testing, AKC versatile programs for the GWP and other versatiles is because of the success of NAVHDA and the other European registries here in the US.

Dualgwp wrote
"The GWPCA has started, or is working on a versatile title for GWPCA members dogs, and it has been decided that NAHVDA tests will be accepted toward that. Thank goodness! It would be wonderful if the club could start our own versatile testing program, and it has been proposed in the past. But it's never gotten off the ground. If there were a group of folks that really wanted to see it happen, it could happen, but so far no one will step to the plate and take it on. "

The reason that no one will step forward to take on this issue is that the GWPCA and its breeders are too invested in their own program of show dogs and trial dogs. Within the ranks of the official club there are but a handful of UT dogs which signifys to me little interest in the concept. Discussing this issue several years back, I was told in no uncertain terms by directors of the GWPCA that they wouldn't support a versatile program. What they were really saying is that they didn't want to see resources that might be allocated to FT or show put in a versatile testing program. The US GWP community is content to offer the GWP as a retrieving field dog and doesn't see the need for a versatile dog. IMO, most feel that the few who really want versatile dogs should go to NAVHDA or a European registry, which a few of us have done. The demands put on these dogs are much higher and have led to a very high quality genepool.

I think before there will be much progress in the versatile direction by the official breed club, there is going to have to be a rebirth of pride in what the breed is rather than winning at games which are only a small part of what the breed should be.

I'm sure I'm gonna take some heat for this but that's the way I see it and there has been little progress that I can detect.
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bunnyhunta
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon P, I hope you don't get any slack for what you're saying; I couldn't agree with you more and I don't even have my GWP yet!!!! But that is the main reason I've always wanted a GWP is because of it's versatility. I've already joined NAVHDA and want to run their tests so I can see if my dog can be all that she can be.
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Luke
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the GWPCA's definition of a versatile hunting dog Question
Just curious
Luke
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KJ
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
While they're at it, they can sign off my Prize I UT dog as a MH


I don't think a UT 1 would work but a VC should. Either way, I know it won't happen.
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Tony
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luke wrote:
What is the GWPCA's definition of a versatile hunting dog Question


I don't think the GWPCA has a definition for "versatile hunting dog", but the last I heard, they were defining a "versatile dog" as one with titles in show, obedience, agility, and field events (hunt test or field trial). Originally, NAVHDA wasn't in the picture. Rolling Eyes
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just know I'll get my you know what in a wringer here, but what the heck.....
My first question, how many of you are members of the GWPCA?
If you are a member, why? If not why?

Next question, or maybe not a question but a statement of sorts.....if you are a member, this "versatile" thing with the club has been an ongoing discussion for a couple of years. A committee has been put together to "fact find", to find out what the members wanted in a VD title. They have come up with a formula and it does include show, obedience, tracking, agility, and a multitude of field events (including NAVHDA titles) and there are a couple of levels to the title. I'm not 100% sure this is in stone as yet, and may still be in the works. Actually I don't think they got much in the way of support one way or the other for it. I'm not sure what that really says..either we just don't care, or we are too busy to be bothered.

As much as Jon and I can argue about "stuff" he and I are in agreement that we need to define ourselves better. But, without YOU, the GWP owners and breeders standing up and speaking your minds nothing will ever get done one way or the other.

The big question is... not how does the GWPCA define "versatile" but rather how do you want the club to define versatile?!

Maybe what we really need is a whole new club, one that is not affiliated with AKC or NAVHDA or the VDD... but rather breeders and owners who want to breed, own and learn about GWP's?
Just a thought.
OK fire away!
Bernee
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Vom Britt
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bernee, I just sent dues in to the GWPCA and the TCGWPC. The reason, I care about the breed and am going to get involved as much as I possibly can.

That new wire organization, I believe hunting them or at least purchasing an annual state small game hunting liscense should be considered before membership is approved Wink
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO the only way real and meaningful progress will be made is for a larger group of folks to agree what the priorities are and to work together to achieve them. For that to happen everyone will have to give up a little of his definition, to profit the breed and the greater good. IMHO, this will not happen. It is the reason I am now devoting my efforts to the DD. You can formulate all the tests you want, but until folks share a common concept of what the breed does, should look like and what constitutes a good breeding pool, ALL AKC breeds will continue to wander in a thousand directions in search of a strong genetic center, especially those breeds with limited numbers.

The main reason the European breed clubs are so attractive is that they have created a depth and breadth to genepools through a common effort.
With the AKC, as long as 30% think a CH is the pinnacle, another 20 % an FC, 5-10% a VC, while the rest dither around talk lots and do little, the challenge will remain daunting at best.

Why form another club - why not reform the one you have? In either case what is needed is leadership and a sharing of a vision instead of the "I did it my way" mentality.

For those who want to really commit to the versatile wired dog, its heritage, and the versatile concept, the only place is the VDD. But I wish the GWPCA well.

Just MHO...
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YOu see it's that attitude, it can't be done, I've tried and it failed that will in fact doom the breed.

I absolutely refuse to see the glass as half empty, I choose to see the glass as half full.

Vom Britt, if a hunting liscence is necassary, I'm afraid I fail right now. I cannot be a part of anything. I am not and have never been a hunter. That doesn't mean I dont' take the dogs hunting, but I do not shoot the gun. I tried, and dam near shot someone and don't wish to try it again. I have no problem with anyone else shooting, I just don't wish to do it.

Does this mean I have less understanding about our breed? I don't think so, but to many I can see how they may believe that. I can tell you that I have watched 100s of GWP's in my 20 plus years in the breed, I have been on many hunts with many breeds, and believe that while I may not actually shoot, I have a darn good handle on what a dog needs to do to insure it can be a good gun dog.

Don't be misled into believeing that many people from many backgrounds cannot be important to the future of the GWP. Hunters alone, without a good knowledge of genetics and without a foundation of who is who and what produces what..... well, best of luck.
Bernee
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Vom Britt
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy there Dual, these are supposed to be hunting dawgs are they not?Supporting your states hunting privilages by purchasing a state small game license, whether you hunt or not, at least shows you care about preserving the hunt in these dogs. We lose the right to hunt, we lose the drive to breed the perfect dog.
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KJ
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dual's idea on a whole new club might be the best route. I think the present club has too many people that describe their dog as 'lovely' and brag about their dog's CH and JH. There is to much of that stuff to try and re-shape it. With a new club, membership should have to be earned instead of a 'pay your dues' membership and be more for breeders than owners. Jon has some very valid points about the AKC. In a breed with not a very big gene pool, it is kind of scary when most AKC people haven't even heard of (or care to know of) the top producing NAVHDA dogs.

Yes, I am a member of the GWPCA but only to keep up with the field trial end of things. I plan on getting into trials as soon as I'm done with school ( for now, only NAVHDA is do-able). Versatility is the most important to me but I prefere the power, run and style field trials bring to the breed. I do feel coat and conformation are important but not in a competitive type format. I think a 1 or 2 time number rating would be the way to go as far as judging coat and conformation.
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Luke
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the GWPCA's definition of a versatile hunting dog is a show Ch with a agility title that has passed a hunt test and a water test?

A couple questions then... what does agility have to do with hunting and is a show champion a better performer in the field than a non show Ch?

How many members are there in the GWP Club? Luke
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ME
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PostPosted: 01/27/04, 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I volunteer to to be the prez of this new club.

The first rule is NO Poof Duhs

The second rule is that no dog with a soft fluffy even a medium coat shall be allowed to be bred. And any such dog that gets a CH title the judge shall be shot so as to not ruin the gene pool. We can get the mob for this.. Wink Coat and conformation will be judged and dog with subpar coat and conformation will be disqualified.

Third rule no dog that has not had a minumum of 100 wild birds shot over it shall be allowed to breed. You must supply pictures and a hunt log for verification.

Forth rule no dog that will not kill ferel animals shall be allowed to breed.

Judging versatiltiy,
Since there are already hunting tests out there HRC, NAVHDA, AKC NAHRA which GWP's can run in, some combination of them will determine what is versatile. This then eliminates the Club from making the tests up and then judging each others dogs.

To have a VGWPC litter both the sire and dam would need to meet these requirements.
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trackindog
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PostPosted: 01/28/04, 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the whole idea of what a versatile dog has got lost in the hunting aspect of this board. The AKC has added the new title of versatile dog to it repetoire in order to show that dogs are not just "pretty" or "hunters" or obedience dogs - it is meant to be for all dogs across the board. They have given the dog owner a chance to do more than one thing with their dog and get recognition for it.

I believe that probably the breed clubs were given the option of what they wanted to use to be a part of what a dog must do in order to receive this title with the basics being conformation, agility, obedience and tracking. For my westies in order to reach the higher levels of the title another requirement would be earthdog, which is what these dogs were originally bred to do. They can get to different levels of this versatile title by being successful in higher level competition titles.

This would be the same for GWP's with quite possibly a hunt title or field title added to the mix.

Here is how the AKC defines "versatile dog":

>>The Versatile Companion Dog titles were created to encourage owners to expand their dogs’ abilities in Obedience, Agility, and Tracking events. Dogs and their owners are enjoying this unique opportunity to showcase their tremendous talent in so many areas. >>

I don't think it was ever meant to reflect what a dog is really bred to do.

Ann
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