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GWP vs. GSP
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parshal
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PostPosted: 05/22/03, 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't agree more. I think it's funny when these guys stick the neoprene vest on their shorthairs when they're swimming in 40 degree weather. My gwp and pudelpointer are panting their brains out when it's warmer than 50 degrees outside. The colder the better for them!
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Keith
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PostPosted: 05/23/03, 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wondering about the differences between your wirehair and your pudelpointer. If I bought another breed for hunting that is the one I would choose.
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parshal
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PostPosted: 05/23/03, 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pudelpointer is definitely more of a water dog than the the wirehair. My wirehair needs a reason to go in the water like a retrieve or something although he'll do it all day. Whenever we go near water the pudelpointer will swim out and stalk ducks. She'll do this as long as we let her. She once took 35 minutes to catch a diving duck.

She's a natural pointer and was pointing and holding quail at seven weeks. I over did it with her when she was young and she flags now but more so on planted birds. She knows the planted bird game and is fabulous at it and places near the top in those sorts of games like NBDCA. She tends to get bored if she doesn't find birds quickly though and will slow down if she's not finding anything. Temperatures over 60 and she'll darn near walk at heel after an hour of hard running and no birds. She's also a bit hardmouthed. If I touch her up with the force fetching she's better but she requires attention. The wirehair is very soft mouth and loves to retrieve. He'll retrieve all day. I believe he'd rather retrieve than point although he's a very stylish pointer. He is a natural backer, too.

Her coat is softer than my wirehair and she has a lot more furnishings. My wirehair has little furnishings and a tight, wiry coat. Nothing sticks to it.

The pudelpointer is calmer in the house. She's 3 1/2 and the wirehair is 2. She has always been calm in the house. The wirehair is more like my vizsla which took 4 1/2 years to calm down!

My take on it is if I want a pet that will hunt I'd keep the pudelpointer. If I want a hunting dog that you can keep in the house I'd keep the wirehair. He's a very nice dog but just full of energy all the time. He's a bit more hardheaded and driven (that may just be the male and young age, though). The pudelpointer is more cooperative but very independent. The wirehair wants to be around me all the time and loves me no matter what. I suspect I'm comparing apples to oranges though since one is a female and one is a male.

I know a number of pudelpointers and one just had a litter. She, too, got a 204 in the utility test. She has a fabulous search and runs all day at a consistent pace. She's a bit smaller than my pudelpointer, though. I would consider her one of the better versatile dogs I've been around. Her pointing is not as stylish as either of my two dogs however she does have great style at times.

The wirehair got a 112 in the natural ability at 12 months. I ran him in the utility at 16 months and he came one shot away from prizing. He abandoned the duck blind which he'd never done in training. If I handled him better and set him up again he would have had a 160 prize III. He was running in the utility test at an age others were running in the natural ability. He has lots of potential and will probably end up being a better overall dog than the pudelpointer.

Both dogs will take punishment and not shut down. I've had my wirehair stand there wagging his tail after taking a hit with the collar moved to the highest setting. He ignored it all the way through to the hottest setting. He worked through every bird after that with no payback for the correction. I hate to admit that I've lost my temper with both dogs at one time or another and neither was adversely affected.

As you can see, I'll talk all day about these dogs. I love hunting dogs and training/hunting with them. Here are some pictures. My wirehair cut two tendons in his foot last friday and is out of training for 10 weeks. I'm sure he would have prized in two weeks at the utility test but I'll have to start over again for this fall's test.

The Pudelpointer, Maddie:

http://www.bambooflyrods.com/Dogs/MaddiePoint1.jpg

http://www.bambooflyrods.com/Dogs/MaddiePoint2.jpg


The GWP, Nash:

This one is not a very stylish point but I haven't had a chance to get a better picture.

http://www.bambooflyrods.com/Dogs/NashPoint1.jpg

http://www.bambooflyrods.com/Dogs/Nashcast.jpg


.
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Baron
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PostPosted: 05/30/03, 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this is a board devoted to wirehairs, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen more unsubstantiated, illogical, breed biased crap in my life. Mad In reality, there really are only minimal differences between the abilities of shorthairs and wirehairs. There are probably more differences within the two breeds than between the two breeds.

Whether you believe it or not, shorthairs will track every bit as well as wirehairs. I have experience with both breeds, and there really is no difference in tracking ability. If blood tracking is really important, then I would take a close look at DDs and DKs. That trait has been bred into them for generations. Few American wirehairs or shorthairs have been specifically bred for that.

As far as the personality traits cited, plenty of shorthairs exhibit the same ones. Those traits are more a product of breeding than of the breed as a whole.

Keith,

In your Jan. 9, 2003 post you said, “Main difference between shorthairs and wirehairs. Wirehairs are far more versatile.” You went on to cite all the wonderful wirehair traits, but you didn’t come up with one that I haven’t seen plenty of shorthairs do, and do well.

Lets apply a little logic to why NAVHDA tests are held in the summer. If they held them during hunting season, no one would participate. It has nothing to do with a shorthair’s inability to take cold water. If you notice, AKC field trials and Hunt Tests are held in the spring and early fall too. Again, if they held them during hunting season, who would come?

Also, I know several guys in MI, WI, and MN that hunt waterfowl with their shorthairs throughout the winter (in case you didn’t know, it gets colder in those states than it does in OK). Some of these guys use neoprene vests when it gets really cold, and some don’t. But, their dogs will break ice and hunt in the cold all day. Sorry to disappoint you!

Now, lets examine that incredible wirehair coat that gives it magical powers to withstand the effects of cold water. In reality, the ability to retain heat is more a function of body mass than coat. If your hypothesis was correct, wirehairs would be superior to labs and chessies in cold water, and we know that’s not true.

Parshal,

I don’t know why anyone would need a neoprene vest on a shorthair in 40-degree weather. Heck, I can almost swim naked in 40-degree weather.

If you guys are going to compare qualities and attributes of various breeds, at least do it accurately, and more importantly, FAIRLY!

Interestingly enough, some of the same negative comments made here about the shorthair’s perceived lack of versatility are the very same things some DD owners and breeders are saying about wirehairs. Go figure!
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parshal
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PostPosted: 05/30/03, 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baron wrote:

Parshal,

I don’t know why anyone would need a neoprene vest on a shorthair in 40-degree weather. Heck, I can almost swim naked in 40-degree weather.


I agree wholeheartedly and I don't see where I blamed it on the breed but the owner. I think if you read my first post in this thread you'll see that I've got nothing against shorthairs. I've seen more good shorthairs than any other breed but, then again, more shorthairs are tested in the tests that I attend.

I take offense to your suggestion that I am biased toward any breed. My bias' are not based on ability but on the look. I prefer the furry face. I'll hunt behind any dog that hunts well. But, I will say that I am biased toward pointing dogs, though.
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Baron
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PostPosted: 05/31/03, 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Parshal,

Sorry if I offended you. That was not my intent. My “breed biased” comment was not directed at you in particular. Your comments were actually benign. However, if you re-read some of the others’ comments, I think you will see why I made that statement. All that, “my breed is better than your breed” crap is ridiculous.
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Vom Britt
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PostPosted: 06/01/03, 6:28 am    Post subject: I'm with Baron Reply with quote

with this breed biased B.S. Comments like a pudelpointer is a better water dog than a GSP or GWP or Sheltie Rolling Eyes makes me wonder how many dogs of a certain breed those folks have watched. I have seen Pudelpointers, GWP, GSP and many others that I would not feed, but will not make any assumptions based on breed only.

I have two wires, two shorthairs and they are all nice dogs that have natural point, retrieve, back and all four will hit the water, even my oldest GSP who some say has pointer blood in her, a Dixieland Rusty great grand daughter, Wink All four have their own personalities but would have to say the GSP's I own are a more independant dog. The wires I have like being around me more and don't have to keep an eye on them when I let them out. I am not saying all GWP & GSP have these traits, just basing the above on my dogs.

Both the GWP and the GSP are a great breed but you do have to do your homework. Research and checkout a reputable breeder first and formost, then research a breeding of theirs. Once you feel comfortable with the breeder and the litter just close your eyes and pick one Wink
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parshal
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PostPosted: 06/01/03, 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: I'm with Baron Reply with quote

I've seen over 40 pudelpointers and I stick by my assessment that, on average, pudelpointers take to the water better than other breeds. I know a trainer of pudelpointers that now breeds GWP's and he'll tell you the same thing. I am not saying that all pudelpointers will be better than all other breeds nor that no other breed can be better. It means that, of the pudelpointers I've seen, they take to the water quicker than many other breeds.

I was asked by someone here what my thoughts were on the pudelpointer since I have both a pudelpointer and GWP. If you read my post you'll see that I'm talking about MY dogs, not every pudelpointer and GWP.

I don't know how to be more clear in my posts. My biased opinions are toward pointing dogs and furry faces. If I was completely biased, I would not even have my GWP as he has virtually no furnishings. But, he's a fabulous hunting dog even at less than two years old. As I said in a previous post, I'll hunt behind any dog that hunts well.
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Baron
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PostPosted: 06/01/03, 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must admit that I have never owned or trained a pudelpointer, and I have only seen a few in action. However, all I have seen have been very strong in the water. I have a friend that owned several when he used to duck hunt, and he loved them. However, I think most of the versatile dogs that have not had their gene pools diluted exhibit a strong love of the water. Pudelpointers are not that popular and the breeding has been tightly controlled enough so that dilution of the gene pool has not been a problem. Some of the GWP, GSP lines and lines of other breeds in this country have been bred more toward specialty (field trial, show, pets, upland only, etc.) and away from versatility. In doing so, many have lost that real love of water. If you look at the DKs and DDs I think you will find that the love of water is more consistently innate across all lines. Of course, you can find good versatile dog lines in the US. You just have to make sure you do your homework.
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Vom Britt
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PostPosted: 06/01/03, 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread was about wires and shorthairs, wasn't it?
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parshal
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PostPosted: 06/02/03, 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baron, I could not agree more. As with any working dog, you need to do research before buying to have a better chance of getting what you want. Some breeds may just be a bit simpler to pick a good dog. But, a buyer still needs to do their homework.

Vom Britt, yes it was. It seems to have changed course as people have argued that there's too much bias here.
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Keith
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PostPosted: 06/02/03, 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stand by my original claim. Wirehairs are more versatile and are used FAR MORE than shorthairs duck hunting. I have seen that BS shoveled out on other boards. This is a wirehair site so we don't have to buy into it here. The percentage of shorthairs used in duck hunting is extremely small. You know it and I know it. They are far more pointer like in their hunting manner and personality. Their breeding for the most part in this country has been taken over by upland bird specialists and their breeding standard is the english pointer. Not very versatile. Even all the white colored shorthairs are a good indication of what they are used for. Don't take my word for it though. Go to the breeders websites and read about their dogs. After spending almost 30 years in duck hunting on public lands and NEVER seeing a shorthair I got curious and went to their websites. See how few of them use their shorthairs for duck hunting. Now go to the wirehairs or DD's websites. If they are a good breeder you will see many references or pictures to duck hunting. Not just NAVHDA references but real pictures of real duck hunts. Shorthair owers talk, wirehair owners and DD owners duck hunt. In my local NAVHDA club I saw some of the differences in personality. On the chain gang the ground under the shorthairs was soon turned to dirt. All the grass was gone from their constant pacing and jumping. Under my wirehairs the grass was still there. They don't have so much of the pointer personality that they can't sit still. They are much more intuned with the hunter while hunting and at home too. Much more of a people dog. Do to the inconsistencies in the wirecoat I have the benefit of knowing which is better in cold water, a shortcoat or a good wirecoat. Even the term short is relative. No wirehair that I have ever bred has as short a coat as the short glossy coat of a shorthair. I would definitely give the edge to the wirehair with a good proper coat. And if you vest both dogs I would give even more of an edge to the thick wire coat. Under a vest they can take on anything that winter can dish out. I could also refer you to several all breed dog books that consistantly state that the wirehairs are more at home in the water and better in cold water. Not just my opinions from decades of duck hunting but opinions of dog writers that don't prefer one breed or the other. Take the B.S. to the shorthair board.
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Keith
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PostPosted: 06/02/03, 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't just referring to water work either. If I wanted a hunting dog that would also double as a dog to protect my family I would go with the wirehairs. If I wanted a dog to do tracking work and if I needed the dog to have the fight needed to hunt pigs or fight any other predators I would go with the wirehair. They haven't yet been converted to just another pointing dog like the shorthairs have.
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PostPosted: 06/04/03, 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I faced that same question over and over again. The last 2 years I have been waiting on a shorthair. When the last breeding failed I decided to revisit the question of GSP vs GWP. Both are very good breeds. I liked the GWP because it is better in cold water for duck hunting. But other than that it seemed to be a toss up. I must have read 10 million books on shorthairs and GWP. I didn't like the fact the the GWP would be sharp with our cats and aloof with strangers. Nor did I know how it would react to my 2 children (3 years and 8 months).

I decided to go out and see a local breeder for the gwp. She had a few pups left over from a litter and one stole my heart. So I took him. All I can say is the books are wrong. he is an awesome dog. All though he is only 5 months old he Is great with the kids. They can climb all over him and he just licks them. The cats he hasn't quite figured them out, but he knows to leave them alone. He knows no stranger. He'll lick anyone who pets him.

So my conclusion is if you find a good breeder, you'll be happy with either one. I do think that the scales tip in the favor of the GWP when it comes to Ducks. The GSP probably will get less burrs on it's coat in the field.
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J Shelton
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PostPosted: 06/04/03, 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must agree with you about the kids and strangers. In our AKC book, it says they are not good with children and aloof with strangers. Personally I feel that if you introduce any puppy to children they will be fine as long as you do it from the beginning.

Our female is now 1yr and is awesome w/our kids (3and 1) and with little kids that come over all she wants to do is lick them. Also, adults that have come over she has yet to show anything but "happiness" to see them.

Our last dog was a lab and I have never seen a more aggressive dog than him. Go figure- when the labs are supposed to be one of the more friendly breeds out there.
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