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GWP vs. GSP
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docpodjy
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PostPosted: 12/28/02, 12:07 am    Post subject: GWP vs. GSP Reply with quote

Anyone have opinions on GSP vs. GWP as far hunting, training, and being a family dog? Mostly interested in +/- of hunting and training either one.
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tprusha
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PostPosted: 12/29/02, 5:57 pm    Post subject: gsp vs gwp Reply with quote

Let me say first that I am not an expert on the subject what-so-ever, however I have been doing quite abit of my own research on the subject. According to some very experienced hunters I guide, the biggest difference between the two is the GWP's versatility. I am currently looking for a replacement to my old GSP, who is ready to retire. This dog has been a steady hunting compaion on retrieving/pointing and some bloodtrailing, however the bloodtrailing part has become increasingly important to me; and one of my clients turned me on to GWP. According to the best sources I have the GWP is the best bloodtrailing dog that will do birds as well. I live in Texas where GSPs abound and GWPs are virtually unheard of, so this has presented a problem with me being able to compare the two directly, however I am looking for a new GWP pup just the same. I have also been told that GWPs are hell on coons, as well (bonus).
Hope this helps,
tprusha
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Keith
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PostPosted: 12/30/02, 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the GWP's have a real edge also when it comes to duck hunting in cold water. I hunt mine regularly with a couple of hunting buddies that have labs. Mine hang right in there with them. We have already broken ice many times this season duck hunting. A thick wire coat is much better than a shorthairs short smooth coat.
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 12/31/02, 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are many differences between the GSP and the GWP. The obvious one is the coat factor. Not only will the coat give more protection in cold water, but the down side is it will also carry a bit more debris and will snowball if the dog works in snow. Not a horrible tradeoff.... but something to consider.
I also find the temperments to be different with the GSP a "harder" dog, more willing to accept seperation from their owner and unwarranted discipline.
A Wire wants and needs to be in close contact with their "person" and is not happy being a kennel dog. And a Wire that is disciplined unfairly will let you know his opinion quickly. He will either walk away or he will defend himself.

As far as a Wire doing blood trailing, I think they will try their best to do whatever you teach them to do. If blood work is important to you, teach him young to track and trail. This fall, one of my dogs found a deer shot by a bow hunter on our property. We showed her where it was hit, and about 15 minutes later, wella! She found the deer.

Coons? Groundhogs? Feral cats? Yup, they can be deadly on them....this winter my bitch took out a coon that was probably half her size and weight!

Dualie
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Keith
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PostPosted: 12/31/02, 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You sure are right about the discipline. If you ever lose your head with a wirehair they will shut down. Many times I have had to just grit my teeth and walk away or put the dog away till I cool down. They don't understand it when you lose your temper with them. They really have a deep bond with their trainer and want to please you. Sometimes you just have to find a creative way to teach them what you want because they don't respond well to anger.
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 01/03/03, 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some differences IMO between the two breeds but they are minor at best and you can probably find the dog you need in either breed.
The softness that is definitely present in some GWPs is more a product of breeding. I think there is probably less softness problems in DDs.

Look for a good breeder in either and you will get a good dog. If you need a good versatile Wire or Shorthair, look to those breeders with a track record in NAVHDA. There are not many but there are a few that have generations of proven and tested versatile dogs. That would be a good starting point. You can order the test results of these kennels from NAVHDA and even talk to judges about dogs they have seen in recent tests. Be wary of breeders that talk a good versatile game but have done little.
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 01/04/03, 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I was talking about is not "softness" but rather a sense of "fairness" this breed seems to have.

When I worked with a big pro trainer, I would watch Shorthairs take punishment with wagging tails and watch Wires give the trainer a look that said "Try that again, Bub, and we will have to have a talk!"

I find with this breed you should not overtrain. Once they have learned the lesson you are better off not going over it over and over it again. They don't take to drilling well and if you insist on training in this fashion, you will end up with a dog that may well do what is asked, but will never be the happy exciting dog you may want.

Anyone looking for any breed needs to do some homework first. But luckily for the GWP, there is not a big split as there is in many other breeds. Be careful of naysayers who make blanket statements about GWP's, DD's, AKC, NAVHDA etc.
There is good and bad in every organization.... working aspects vary by bloodlines as do coats, temperments etc.
Some are strong in one aspect, and weak in another. Some are better trackers, some better pointers.
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 01/05/03, 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi DualGWP,
Happy New Year and I hope the fishing is good!!

Disagree with you about the need for repetitive training. I learn a lot about a dog during the training process and the process helps me make decisions about the value of a dog. The dog that will accept repetitive training but maintain its desire and cooperation is always the top prospect for me. Dogs that lose desire or range or "wierd out" due to training pressure have to be seen as potentially unstable or having lower desire.

I'm not talking about inappropriate or dumb relentless pressure. I'm talking about normal training and appropriate pressure. But if we're truly looking for the top genepool then that's the dog I want. Maintains drive, takes the pressure of training but rebounds as an obedient and high desire dog. IMO, by not requiring FT dogs retrieve cleanly (without the begging) all the time, we've gotten a softer dog. These dogs don't have to go through force training and still maintain their speed and range. Now, dogs can be dragged off point instead of being heeled off. How will this affect biddability down the road. Whenever you require less, you get less.
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 01/05/03, 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone can agree or disagree as they see fit. I feel that dogs that do the same thing over and over and over again with happily wagging tails are called Golden Retrievers and not Wires. In my humble experience most wires will happily do a task in training once, twice three times but ask them to repeat it over and over and over again and they get bored. And once they have learned a lesson, they don't need to repeat it over and over and over again. But, maybe yours are different.

Dragging a dog off of a point is not done in AKC field trials. Collaring a dog after a find, the flush and the shot is allowed. Any handler who drags a dog would probably be asked to put that dog on the rope and head back to camp.
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Keith
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PostPosted: 01/06/03, 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with dualgwp. Wirehairs are not soft dogs like say an English setter. But they are not like an English pointer either. I have seen friends put a beating on pointers and even labs that I wouldn't dream of doing to a wirehair. I have had tough males that could take some pretty tough discipline. These dogs are easy to train once they understand that you are boss. But I have also had females that that would lie down on the groung and refuse to move if you got at all rough with them. There is nothing wrong with their breeding. That same rough treatment that some pointers and labs demand doesn't work on most wirehairs. And as a whole they do become very bored with senseless repitition like you would use teaching a lab retrieving drills. That is why they can't compete with labs at big retriever trials. What they do posess is an enormous amount of natural hunting instinct. I once had wirehair breeder tell me the best way to train a wirehair to hunt is to take him hunting. That isn't far from the truth. If you want them to retrieve a duck shoot one. If you want them to point a quail take them quail hunting. The good ones will do all this with very little exposure. This weekend I had a dog make a hard retrieve on a mallard through ice and thick weeds all in swimming depth water for well over a hundred yards chasing a wounded duck and then come sit by my side waiting on the next duck. That same dog was pointing quail for me the next morning, holding till I took her picture and flushed the wild quail. Then she made a beautiful retrieve across a stream and brought it to hand. All with very little formal training.
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 01/06/03, 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Responding to Keith and DualGWP

I don't think that we really disagree that much but your responses make me a little uneasy. I don't think dogs train themselves and I do think that if one allows a dog to say when he's had enough, then sooner or later, that's what he'll tell you in the field or on the water when there may be a difficult or complicated retrieve. For example, a dog must accept that he must retrieve the crippled duck before the dead one or you will lose wounded game. "Switching", for example, can only be prevented through repetition. I don't think we differ but its just I sense a reluctance in your posts to put pressure (and I mean appropriate pressure) on a dog until it is truly trained and reliable. When properly done, force retrieve binds dog and handler together like no other training. And, it tells you a great deal about the character and temperamental soundness of a dog.

There are exceptional dogs that require little training and seem to just "get it" through experience. But, those are the exceptions. I suspect, however, that we are from two different schools. I don't want to continually coach or hack my dog to obedient behavior. I rarely call or whistle to dogs in the field. Finished dogs don't need a Whoa when they're on point, just a word of praise and a tap on the head to retrieve. I expect dogs to retrieve to hand without "coaching". This is probably unimportant to many. But when we expect or settle for less, in the end we get less.

Apologize for my mis-statement. Of course I meant collaring a dog after the shot. Personally, I expect a good dog to be able to be heeled or even called off any game at any time. This can save me from deer chasing, porcupine wrestling, skunk bathing and chasing running pheasant down a ravine wall (which nearly happened in North Dakota). This control I consider to be a safety issue. I know that some folks would consider this kind of attitude to be "taking the desire out of the dog" as it is often expressed. Couldn't be farther from the truth. Properly done there is no loss of desire or style and I learn a lot more about what a dog is really made of.

When I hear folks argue against this kind of control and obedience with the age old "taking the desire out of the dog" rhetoric, I have to chuckle. That's what the breed was created, evaluated and trained to do. The German's must have left a little desire in the breed or you all wouldn't have those great stylish FT dogs:) Cadenburg, Schnellberg, Sigurd, von der Feld, Scheyrental, etc - the lines that have spawned most of the successful FT dogs came right from Germany. So the versatile dog system can't be all that bad:)
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Keith
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PostPosted: 01/09/03, 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Main difference between shorthairs and wirehairs. Wirehairs are far more versatile. The good ones REALLY have the capability of sitting there with you on a real duck hunt and retrieving ducks shot in ice cold conditions. Unlike shorthairs and some of the other so-called versatile breeds they are not just good exhibition dogs. They can sit by your side and wait and watch for the next flight of ducks. They have not (yet) been crossbred with pointers so they are better in the uplands and not suited for real duck hunting. Unlike pointers and shorthairs crossed with pointers they will sit patiently by your side and will not hesitate to put their nose to the ground to track game. They are also protective. Most of the wirehairs I have owned would not hestitate to protect their family. I am not just saying that like so many other ignorant dog owners. They REALLY WILL protect their owners. They are also game enough to attack animals when necessary. They won't back down from aggressive animals like most breeds of dogs. They are not wimps. They are to my knowledge THE MOST versatile breed of hunting dog. Fully capable of hunting waterfowl in any condition, any kind of upland bird, rabbits and other small game, blood tracking deer or tracking other big game, killing vermin and protecting the home. They are the definition of versatility.
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Drahthaarkid
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PostPosted: 02/01/03, 9:49 pm    Post subject: gwp VS gsp Reply with quote

Hey you may want to look into vdd-gna for Drahthaar if you are looking for a bloodtrailing and jack of all trades. IMO alot of the AKC wirehairs are being bred to some shorthairs somewhere down the line if you look at true German standards for the DD predominately white is unacceptable. Just something you may look into, or do alot of background checking!!!!!!!!
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parshal
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PostPosted: 05/22/03, 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NAVHDA is all about training the versatile hunting dog and there are more GSP's than any other dog tested with GWP's a close second. I must say, though, that NAVHDA does not spend any time with furred animals like the VDD does. In a recent NAVHDA magazine they posted the score breakdown by test for the various breeds and the Pudelpointer scored better percentage-wise than any other breed. Fully 100% of the Pudelpointers tested prized. Both GSP's and GWP's were around 75%.
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Keith
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PostPosted: 05/22/03, 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at the time of year NAVHDA events take place too. It is not an accident that the events in the Northern parts of the country take place in the summer and if you want to test in the winter you have to move south, way south. My duck hunting takes place from November until the end of January. Most years by the end of season the lakes are frozen and many times my dogs have to break ice in the mornings. And that is in Oklahoma not exactly the Northern part of the country. That is the main reason I went with wirehairs and not shorthairs. Give me a good thick wire coat any day over a shorthair. As a bonus I like the personality better in the wirehairs and to be honest I like the looks better. Hard for a shorthair person to understand.
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