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VDD vs. GWP
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ENL
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PostPosted: 12/29/03, 5:51 am    Post subject: VDD vs. GWP Reply with quote

Is there a difference?

I sent a XMas newsletter out describing my six/seven-month old as "a Deutsch Draathar -- or the German version of a wirehaired pointer" and got a bunch of feedback. I included a color picture. My dog's parents are German, she's mottled black, she has a thick coat and she hunts. I had several hunting buds tell me that she looks like a GSP with a beard and slippers, and that no GWP are black, and that "Deutsch Draathar" literally means "German Wirehaired," so they're all the same. (Of course, those weren't the same guys that watched her point and flush birds last weekend!)

Is "German Wirehaired Pointer" just a description of an "Americanized" DD, but they are two different types of dogs? I look at the AKC description of GWP and it blows me away because my dog is way too big and she's black. Her lineage is awesome for a DD in the stud book; so that makes her a DD and not a GWP, right?

I just don't get that she can't meet the GWP requirements when her lineage is in the stud book as a completely Deutsch Drathaar. Can we just call these two different breeds at this point? Do we need to?
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 12/29/03, 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To keep it as simple as possible....
If your dog is registered with the VDD- it is a DD
If your dog is registered with the AKC- it is a GWP

Only dogs registered with the AKC can compete or test in AKC events.
Only dogs registered with the VDD can test in VDD events
Both (I am fairly certain) can test in NAVHDA.

It is possible to register a VDD registered dog with AKC and it's not that difficult to do if the dog was born in Europe. However, you cannot register an AKC dog with the VDD no matter where it was born.

Color has nothing to do with it, niether does working ability. Unfortunately it's mostly politics that keep them seperate.

Confusing sometimes, but not important if the dog is what you want it to be.
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 12/30/03, 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dual is quite right in her assessment of the differences except she omitted what the differences in registration requirements are - and they are considerable. A DD is a DD because the name has been earned and granted. A GWP is a GWP because the registration fee has been paid.
More important is the whole attitude to breeding, testing and evaluating in both systems.

ENL..a GWP is the Americanized version of the DD. The DD existed for almost 60 years before the GWP was recognized by the AKC and steered toward field trialing in 1959. You have the original and I'm glad you enjoy it.
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ENL
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PostPosted: 12/31/03, 2:33 am    Post subject: Two good explanations...I think I get it now Reply with quote

My dog is VDD registered and now I understand how the whole stud book thing works, to get her AKC registered. I think that started my frustration because of the extra steps to get her AKC, and then reading that I can't even show her there without severe penalty -- or at least my daughter can't. I'm only interested in hunting and field trials, but I thought my daughter might get into to show part.

Remember...all my hunting buddies were just giving me a hard time and I think I just overreacted to it.

BUT...it was funny when I took my dog to the kennel resort/spa Very Happy while we go away for a week, I said she was a DD and the woman said, "huh?" And then I said "German Wirehaired Pointer," and, I swear, she said, "Those can't be black." It absolutely slayed me with laughter. I'm just going to forget about the whole thing and teach my daughter to enjoy hunting with the dog!

enl
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PostPosted: 12/31/03, 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ENL,

I hope the dog is enjoyed by all but I hope that you would honor the regulations of the VDD and breed her within those regulations if you decide to do so. Personally, I don't have any problem with folks pursuing different activities with their dogs but the reason the DD maintains such a large quality genepool and a high percentage of very good versatile dogs is the breeding and testing regulations.

Besides, in the VDD black is beautiful Smile
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cheerio
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PostPosted: 12/31/03, 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree, my new rescue is all black ( and who ever had told me on this board that the redish brown on top of her head would probably fall off was right, it has all dissapeared!). I do find her beautiful and as funny as Cheerio was. BUT, she is still fat!
BTW, are all black GWP issued from VDD lines?
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PostPosted: 12/31/03, 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheerio,

I would imagine that ALL GWPs descended at one time from DD. But, if you are asking if the current increase in black GWPs are coming from the DD genepool, I think the answer is yes. There are several GWP breeders who are championing the black GWP who have used dogs principally from NAVHDA enthusiasts. They have decided to breed black GWPs inspite of the current standard. These dogs and bloodlines are certainly not among the best and most consistent DD lines but they are black. I am not aware of how the "get" from these breedings have fared in competitive events.

BTW, when you say that your new rescue is all black, do you mean all black roan or really completely ALL black. A solid black dog would be banned from breeding in the VDD and could only be produced by mating a black roan to a solid liver, which is prohibited.
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cheerio
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PostPosted: 01/01/04, 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the explanation Jon P. And yes, when I say black I do mean all black, except around the mouth where she has a grey frosting and a little bit of grey on her chest. As I said, she did have some redish brown on top of her head when I first got her but this has fallen off and her head is now also all black.
I am really not concerned about breeding her. The first thing I did was to fix her. However, I have tracked down her breeder who said to me that he does often have black GWP. So perhaps he is doing something a little fishy. He also has quite a few papered GWP who looked to me more like the English pointer, mostly white with brown spots and no wire coat. He did explain to me that these were comun throw backs. Since I am not a GWP breeder, I have not paid much attention to his explanation although I did find it a little surprising. Perhaps you could enlighten me.
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PostPosted: 01/01/04, 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheerio,
When you say the dog has gray on her chest, might this be a black roan patch? If not, I'd be interested to know if either the dog's sire or dam was a solid liver.

Whenever I hear of or see GWPs that look like pointers or setters, I'm always amused by the explanations. After 100 years of breeding for a certain type and coat, I find it very odd that these types of dogs crop up and almost always in the hands of field trialers or those of like mentality.
I have never heard of a DD in recent years with a short coat AND dish face AND either solid a white or mostly white head as has been seen in GWPs. I will be in Germany on a hunt in 2 weeks and will have the chance to speak with a number of longtime breeders about this. Not saying that there aren't throwbacks, and it could be that breeders favoring a "pointer" type GWP for the competitive games are naturally selecting a genepool that is more pointer like, smaller, slighter, faster and less concerned with coat (actually a really dense hard double coat might be detrimental in any kind of hot weather, especially if the dog were large as well.) With a primary focus on the GWP as a FT and bird dog and not a versatile dog, the the working members of the breed have become smaller
IMO.

There are also a lot of renegade breeders with little regard for the whole dog and many more concentrating on just selected aspects of the breed.
"Jus' gotta hunt an' if it don't, just git yorself a newun!"
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PostPosted: 01/01/04, 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon P. You are obviously a hunter and I am in full agreeance with your assertion regarding hunting dog selection. I wonder how many potentially outstanding dogs have been culled as pups because of the spots being in the wrong place or their hair not conforming to the current fasion trend. These dogs are supposed to be versatile hunting dogs; hunting ability and versatility should be the first selection criteria. Don't you think?
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PostPosted: 01/04/04, 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sambarman,
I'm not sure we connected as far as my last comment. I think we SHOULD breed the complete dog but realize that only a small percentage of pups are going to be best possible breeding stock. When I wrote, "Jus' gotta hunt an' if it don't, just git yorself a newun!", I was being fecetious.

The GWP has had difficulties building a solid breeding genepool for many reasons chief among which has been the tendency for every owner to breed a very limited criteria. The other is too many of the few good dogs disappear into the woods never to be heard from again. More folks must get on the same page and that is difficult to do in American society, where too much emphasis is placed on individual expression and interpretation. The main reason that I have stopped breeding GWPs is due to the lack of a solid, center-focused genepool of versatile dogs and the widespread lack of interest in such dogs. To me, the breed seems scattered in 5 different directions, each group ignoring important aspects of the breed for the sake of a hobby or interest and "the win".

I do agree with you that IF the total dog is going to be persued, it has to be through the pursuit of excellent working dogs.
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PostPosted: 01/05/04, 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon P wrote:
ENL,

I hope the dog is enjoyed by all but I hope that you would honor the regulations of the VDD and breed her within those regulations if you decide to do so. Personally, I don't have any problem with folks pursuing different activities with their dogs but the reason the DD maintains such a large quality genepool and a high percentage of very good versatile dogs is the breeding and testing regulations.

Besides, in the VDD black is beautiful Smile



Yep, Jon...she's one of the most *very* gorgeous dogs I've ever owned. That's what gets me...she's so beautiful and she meets all the other standards, but she's black, and she's big. Well...she's mottled black -- she looks like a really thick, heavy black-and-white-ticked GSP wearing a Holloween costume for Cat Woman Very Happy . (she's a Richthoff dog -- and I think that's where the black came from because he's had several black-leaning lines.)

Just bugs me because I'd like her to be versatile enough for my daughter to get involved with AKC or some other "showing" club. The dog would love any job and pleasing my daughter with going to "show" events, would be great. All the versatile dog trials are great, too, but they tend to be far away and more than a kid might be able to bite off with her dad's hunting dog. I'd just like my daughter to show her (our) dog off and teach her (the dog) (and my kiddo Very Happy, especially) how to do it. Stuff for them to do, together. The dog really responds to my daughter well, even though my daughter is less than six-years old and the dog is less than a year.

Does FFA or 4H or something else do judging just based on a dog listening to a kid's commands and paying attention? I've gone to the fair and there are a lot of dogs, but how are they being judged? I walk around and admire them all, but can just any old dog be in these types of events?

No breeding happening here, BTW. She's was fixed right after six months. Didn't phase her a bit. Drove a couple of other guys with shotguns bananas. hehe

enl
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PostPosted: 01/05/04, 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ENL
There are lots of things your daughter can do with your dog.. obedience, agility, hunt tests, tracking even Jr Showmanship. All of these things are offered at AKC events and as long as your dog is registered with the AKC...

UKC has events as well that should be great for kid and dog.

These kinds of events are fun for kids and the dogs. I started in the dog world doing obedience with my Irish Setter when I was 12 yrs old. In those days I was probably one of the youngest people to ever get a title on a dog! At least I was always the only kid entered, and definitely the only one with an Irish. From there it took me a long time to get involved with pure bred dogs, but it always stuck in my mind and when I became an adult and able to get out on my own, I sort of just drifted in that direction.

It's great to get your daughter involved...the sport of dogs and the breed need interested and dedicated people for the future.
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PostPosted: 01/05/04, 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A P.S. to my last post....once you spayed your bitch, you lost the opportunity to show her in the breed ring whether she is black and white or liver and white. So, that option was lost to you when she was 6 mos. old anyhow.
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PostPosted: 01/05/04, 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ENL,

I have never understood the fascination with dog shows. For serious breeders they offer little other than a chance for others to see their dogs. The results of these shows do not in any way confer great quality or superior value. Serious breeders would be better off to gather themselves and grade and discuss their dogs, compare pedigrees and prepotence of dogs, lines, etc. Having given the control of dog shows to an external organization (AKC) that has little interest in many of the lesser known breeds, the results of these competitions is questionable at best. When after winning you still have to question whether a dog has either the talent or physical equipment, the competitive system is mortally flawed.

I DO believe that folks need to come together but also believe that too many folks put too much value in a system that stresses inclusion rather than excellence. The danger in such sytems is that dogs are bred to the level of the competition and not to the level of excellence in the standard.
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