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AmmoMike
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Joined: 22 May 2003
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Location: Wichita Falls TX

PostPosted: 08/17/03, 2:27 pm    Post subject: Im lost Reply with quote

Ok here is the delema I am in right now. All of my life I have been told that you should never take a puppy before 9 weeks old, right.. Well I was reading a book (game dogs by robert wolther) today while wasting time for the mall to open and he said you should take a pup away from the litter at 7 weeks or 49 days.. Due to this sentence I read on a bit while he explained. He says that the 7 - 12 week is when the pup bonds the best with the master, also with the place in the pack concept if he is lower than the bull pup, taking the pup out at 7 weeks wont scare hime for life basically.

Now next question Has anyone ever heard of this guy? He also wrote a book called water dogs, and also he writes a column in the mag nahra news. seems as though he has been at it for a while and put the 36 pages or so that I read in terms that even I could understand.

And one last one and im done wasting your time. What is the story on the NAVHDA GREEN BOOK! My wife was told this is a excellent book for me to train with. Now, as you all know I am a way beginner to all of this training stuff. Sit and stay is about all any of my pups have gotten before. So tell me is this book going to read over my head? Or is it put into laymans terms where even the slowest person trying to do this can succeed?

Thanks for your patients
Mike
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Tony
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PostPosted: 08/17/03, 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike,

Throw the Wolters book away and forget everything in it, especially the wing on a fishing pole stuff. If you want a book that will help with the basic field training for your pup, find a copy of How to Help Gun Dogs Train Themselves by Joan Bailey.

Tony
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KYSER
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PostPosted: 08/17/03, 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got my pup at 7 weeks. As far as training liturature goes, opinions are
like you know what. I've read a lot about this and it gets more confusing the more you research. I am using the Speed Train You Own Bird Dog by Larry Mueller. The title turns most people off but it is not about having a trained dog in a short time, its about avoiding mistakes that take time to correct. I looked at three training programs and Muellers seemed the most informative and easy to relate to. This may not be the right manual if you want to run field trials but is is doing fine by me. One method by Janet Nahorn, AKA birddog, is called no whistles. no whoas. She owns Mason Creek Kennels in Wisconson and has a web site on it. She is a gwp breeder and I have heard it is a good vidio. If you plan on training your own dog I would check your local library and see if they have some books, my library was able to get books they didn't have from another library. Some people will argue you shouldn't do any bird work until the pup is a year old, my pup was conditioned to running a pattern, whoa, birds and gunfire and retrived the first pidgeon I shot for him before 16 weeks old. He is by no means steady yet but he has the disire and I am confdent I can have him steady by next hunting season. I want to have him steady to wing but I'm debating about steady to shot. Best of Luck with your training.
Kyser
P.S
one word of caution that is in my manual is to use any system but stick strictly to that system. Dont try a little of this one and some of that one because it may mess up the timing of events.


Last edited by KYSER on 08/17/03, 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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K2K
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PostPosted: 08/17/03, 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony hit the nail right on the head! The Bailey book is absolutely supreme! I never cared for the Wolters' books, but other people use them.

And 7 weeks (49 days) is generally accepted as being a good age to bring a pup home....

Again, absolutely get the Bailey book! I found a copy in the library (and I did give it back Laughing )

Have fun with the new pup! Don't worry so much, enjoy!

Karen
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Baron
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PostPosted: 08/17/03, 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree with Tony about the Wolther book. I tried it with my first dog and I wish I hadn’t. It caused me a lot of problems I had to fix later.

The NAVHDA Green book is a good training resourse. You can find it on their website: https://secure.ioncart.net/NAVHDA/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=2&subcat=2&cat=Books. However, I think there are some more updated methods that may work better (just my personal opinion).

My advice would be to join a local NAVHDA chapter. In most chapters there are some very good and experienced trainers that will be willing to help you. Watch some of the experienced trainers, their methods, and most importantly, their dogs. Try to buddy up with a couple of them that impress you, and learn all you can from them.

Good Luck!
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 08/17/03, 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a great site on the web for training ideas....


www.uplandbirddog.com

lots of very experienced people there.
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AmmoMike
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PostPosted: 08/17/03, 9:18 pm    Post subject: Im lost Reply with quote

Thanks for all the info guys
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Anne
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PostPosted: 08/18/03, 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mike:
Sorry to hear about the pup (I saw your wife's post). I know you'll get another one soon. Sounds like you have a lot of good hunting training resources. I thought I'd throw a few pet training resources out there since it sounds like this dog will be a pet as well as a hunting companion. As far as the age to bring them home, I think 7-8 weeks is currently believed to be the best. Here are my top 5 favorite dog training/behavior books.

1. The Other End of the Leash - Patricia McConnell
2. The Culture Clash - Jean Donaldson
3. Before You Get a Puppy - Ian Dunbar
4. After You Get a Puppy - Ian Dunbar
5. How to Raise a Puppy You Can Live With - ??

If I had to pick 6 I'd add How To Speak Dog by Stanley Cohen
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cheerio
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PostPosted: 08/18/03, 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I NEVER sell a pup before 8 weeks. And this is why:

1- a pup should not leave until he is 100% off Mommy's milk for a full week. Most pups will continue nursing from time to time up until somewhere between 6 and 7 weeks.

2- Somewhere between 6 and 8 weeks, Mom starts teaching the pups that they are rules in the world, and starts their socialization. By allowing Mom to start the job, the pup goes to his new home knowing that he will be expecting to live by certain rules and this makes the training that much easier.

3- Pups reach a shy period somewhere between 5 and 7 weeks. You don't want to disrupt him during that time.

4- By letting my pups go at 8 weeks, I know that they have received at least 2 vaccines and have been properly dewormed 3 times. With the spread of Parvovirus, this I find is particularly important. Furthermore, with the controversy of the 6 weeks vaccine, many breeders do not vaccinate until 8 weeks. So if you take your pup at 7 weeks, he is likely to have received no protection.

5- I temperament test all my pups to ensure better suitability between puppy and his new family. Such a test has to be done at 7 weeks, and because pups don't all mature at the same rate, it is absolutely crutial to be able to observe the pups in consideration of the test results the following week.

6- The playtime pups share with their littermates between 6 and 8 weeks teaches them socialisation and respect for other dogs.

7- No training starts prior to 8 weeks. Each time I sold a pup for any type of work, being to the police, to a service dog association or to an individual for SAR or therapy work, I was ask to let the pup go at 8 weeks.

8- Mom does not start loosing interest in her pups up until somewhere between 7 and 8 weeks. She is the one who did all the work, so lets leave her enjoy her babies.

9- 6 to 8 weeks are when the pups starts being a lot of fun and I want to be able to enjoy my pups too!
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AmmoMike
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PostPosted: 08/18/03, 1:29 pm    Post subject: Im lost Reply with quote

As far as far as my pup being a hunter well that is a plus. A companion is the most important thing for me, and if she hunts GREAT, as long as she likes to go for a ride in the jeep every now and again im a happy boy. Yes i am going to train her for birds, and i think i will struggle through it being this will be the first time for me. but i also know that their is a couple of you on the list here that is close and may get a call from me every now and again for instructions.

as far as resources go HA, i am TDY in san antonio and was in barnes and nobles for a couple of hours wasting time when i picked up this book and started reading it (for 2 hours before i knew it) other than that i still dont know to much about wichita falls or the local surrounding area so the hunt will begin for a good resourse place..

I have put a new deposit on yet another pup (LAST TIME) I received an email from a guy that had bought his pup from them and all was good with them so, im going to give it one last shot.

mike
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Anne
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PostPosted: 08/19/03, 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheerio-
Thank you very much for the well articulated excellent points about the age to send pups "home". I had always wondered about that and have not run across much good info. Since I'm not a breeder maybe I just don't know the right resources. Anyway, thank you for the post.
Anne
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cheerio
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PostPosted: 08/19/03, 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anne, you are very welcome. Glad I could give you the perspective of some breeders.
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trackindog
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PostPosted: 08/20/03, 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
so, im going to give it one last shot.


Wishing you good luck Mike and let us know how it goes. From reading your posts I think you will have one lucky GWP!

Ann
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maddog
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PostPosted: 10/05/03, 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Ammomike, Are you in the Army by any chance?
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AmmoMike
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PostPosted: 10/06/03, 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in the Air Force stationed in WIchita Falls Texas.
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