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German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America
AKC Parent Club for the German Wirehaired Pointer
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Rhonda
Junior
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 43
Location: SW Iowa
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 Posted: 11/19/09, 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Whiskers.....
Jim West here again, or Jimmy, Jimmy-boy, Big Jim, whatever you like; you have finally been able to provoke me. Now I am with it to the end. One of us is going to go.
So, let me be the first to say...bye-bye!!
You have insulted Rhonda and the other women on this board. I don't know how you treat your wife and children at home, but I will not tolerate someone being disrespectful to women around me. We are in AmeriCa and women have rights and are equals. I know a lot of women dog trainers that are as good or better than the top male dog trainers. Women have a gentle manner and a soft hand. These women are not less than me, they are my equal.
You don't realize that you are dealing with women who have raised, trained, shown, hunt tested, field trialed and guided upland and waterfowl hunts with their dogs.(Rhonda for 20 years; she did some NSTRA,too, and Bernee for 30...and Bernee does NAVHDA, too.) For some reason you don't want to give them any credit for their vast knowledge.
You were told not to call Rhonda "dear"...that is a male chauvinist remark. So don't do it again. You have no credibility nor enough knowledge or experience to give this board any useful input. You are not even a good representative of the VDD.
Since your hang up is white, why is it that the VDD in Canada has white (not roan) listed as a color (liver and white or black and white)? If you don't believe me, check out their website. The verbage and the photos will apparently surprise you.
I would love to come and play cards at your house. What's the address?
And, the next thing is....why would you bring NAVHDA in to this? It is a very good training organization and has similarities to what you do, so why would you bash them? And,no, I don't attend NAVHDA, but there are a number of members w/ GWP's that do, so I will back them 100%
You wanted an argument...I guess I'm your Huckleberry. Get your list made up and be prepared.
Jim West
We can only be what we give ourselves the power to be
United we Stand, Divided we Fall. |
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whiskerdog1
Master
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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A Great Video sure to drive Tony nuts
Notice the little Teckel (Dachshund) assert himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9OcL1JkXJY&feature=related
Jimbo
The Canadian VDD is also a VDD affiliate club.
Their acceptable colors are the same as ours, VDD-GNA.
White is not acceptable.
Braunschimmel and Schwarzschimmel (Brown Roan and Black Roan) are Acceptable, along with Braun w/Breastflake.
This is from their site, they are part of GNA or Group North America
| Quote: | Colour:
* Brown roan with or without patches.
* Black roan, with or without patches.
* Brown with or without white chest patch.
* Light roan. |
You argue with a very limited knowledge of The Breed, Its foundations, its origins and its History, and it is a severe handicap.
It makes you look foolish and uninformed. No offense.
I try to be patient, but I dont have much for fools anymore, Sorry you bear the brunt of it, but it oh so apparent, even for the blind to see.
I credit Rhonda for her devotion to Her sport, but not her breeding acumen and history of the Breed, or lack thereof.
Im in Ohio, if you wish to play let me know when you want to road trip.
We can hunt ducks and geese in the morning/ afternoon, maybe shoot a deer late in the evening and bring out the dogs.
Second thought, Id prefer good company, you aint it.
Navhda is a decent organization, but stopped being so when it became a registry, in my and others opinion. Its a long story, and I dont have time for it.
I dont knock those that do Navhda, but I have high hopes for the newly formed VHDA however.
DEAR is a term I use for all women, I wasnt being condescending
A little thin skinned, huh Jimbo?
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Real men hunt Wire Dogs |
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Rhonda
Junior
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 43
Location: SW Iowa
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Whiskers...
OK, since hunting won't work, how about a fishing trip in Alaska?
Anyways, let's start off with this question and see where it goes:
Why can't you see the split in your VDD? It is right there in your pictures. Each group is different. Different sizes, different coats, different builds...and guess what; they can all be bred to each other. If you have got defined "families of type"; you have a split.
Obama, please give me the strength to deal with idiots.
Jim West
We can only be what we give ourselves the power to be
United we Stand, Divided we Fall |
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whiskerdog1
Master
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Im not a good fisherman
Did the Green River in Utah for Rainbows, Cutbows and Browns last Summer, enjoyed it but just aint my thing.
There is not a Split.
You confuse that word with Type and variance within the Breed standard, which I listed as part of the Breeds historical background.
If you research it further you will find it out for yourself.
I charge $75 an hour for my work
If you want me to educate you I will, but not for free.
These are the Dogs Group Canada is producing
http://www.vdd-canada.ca/public/the-breeding-system-litter-announcements.htm
Studs are also listed. There are No Whites, Jimbo
You make insane and inane remarks that sort of reveal an empty space between your cranium.
I sure dont want to get banned, nor do I wish you to, so I will temper it.
We can agree to disagree but Id rather you work with Pointers, as in English than go down a slope of breed ruin and decay.
And Rhonda has my respect.
Any women that is involved as she is with dogs, has my utmost respect.
I married a NY Sicilian. She aint into dogs or wild game, but lets me do my thing.
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Rhonda
Junior
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 43
Location: SW Iowa
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Research a bit dear, it will come to you. I will get you started...thank me later.
The Breed itself was/ is divided into types, from the emerging 5 in the Breed.
[b]Five "Types"
In breeding, "TYPE" denotes an IDEAL, or a goal in breeding. Further stated, it is all of the desired qualities in a single dog. In addition, the genetic combination must be so strong that its effects persist generation after generation. Since "type", when achieved, can be consistently reproduced, it should serve as a basis toward which to strive.
As the Drahthaar made rapid advances, five distinct "types" began to emerge.
These family types were not intentional, but were the chance culmination of effort from over a century of searching and breeding.
Each type represents a perfect balance performance, coat, conformation, and temperament, and each possesses a unique character and spirit.
The family types are named for the first dog which both exhibited the characteristic performance and the ability to consistently reproduce those same qualities through several generations.
These five DD family types were without exception, first manifested by males, however, there was a long line of bitches, which were proven carriers of the traits.
The five existing family types are listed and described below: |
I really wish that you would have continued with the above "education" for me. It is written proof of that fact that the split is recognized. These are not Cockers with color divisions, or Dachshunds with Mini/Standard size divisions.
The GWP's don't have 5 "families of type"...they have ONE standard.
Are you really that stupid? Jim is not thin skinned and I do not want to be called "dear" by you. You are using it in a chauvinistic and condescending manner and I don't appreciate it. I am the only woman that you have called dear on this thread. I have asked you to stop. You continue to be disrespectful and use it. I pity to know what kind of education your children are getting in terms of manners and respect. They'll respect the land and be able to kill anything...but that isn't all life is about!
I am going to go to dinner now...so have a great time!!
Rhonda
Read. Comprehend. Absorb. |
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Deb Finstad
Junior
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 71
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | but I have high hopes for the newly formed VHDA however |
You have high hopes for the Virginia Housing Development Authority?
Or do you mean the VHDF - Versatile Hunting Dog Federation. |
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Tony
Master
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 197
Location: Iowa
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| whiskerhog1 wrote: | | DDs here dont compete per se, but the few that have (Lutz Cadenburg-Import DD, was one of the Most Successful and influential 'GWPs" in the entire Breed here in the USA. That has to Kill you, Tony |
Why would that bother me? Do you realize that Lutz has been gone for almost 30 years??? Being the DD expert that you are, you should be able to tell by my dogs pictures that their pedigrees go back to Lutz 8-10 times.
| whiskerhog1 wrote: | | In Europe DDs trial, and they do well. |
Why don't they trial here? Because we want to see a dog that points?
| whiskerhog1 wrote: | The 2-3 lifetime tests are Breeding Requirements for that which they were and are bred.
What one wishes to do afterwards with his dog, albeit Hunt, compete, or chase planted chickens for excitement is his prerogative. |
I am well away of your tests and breeding requirements. The problem I have with only judging a dog for a few hours of it's life is that it can go on and kill the neighbors pet and bite the grandkids and the owner keeps selling puppies and collecting stud fees. Our dogs are judged by the competition every time we bring them to a trial from the time they are a 6 month old puppy until they win the NFC (I am still working towards that one).
| whiskerhog1 wrote: | | Quote: | | You guys have generations of test score, but they don't have a lot to do with a classy brace of bird dogs. |
None of this has anything to do with Breeding better dogs. It wasnt how the breed came about or continues to thrive.
Its about ego.
Classy is, as Classy does. |
Your 6 pages of anonymous trolling is proof that you have no class and you probably wouldn't know it when you saw it. How long do you think they would let me participate in a DD forum if I talked shit about their dogs?
| whiskerhog1 wrote: | | I was told by a trialer 2 weeks ago mine didnt have much 'Style' and this was after my dog found 3xs as many birds as his, did all of the retrieve work and without the Ecollar he used on his. |
Does this "trialer" and his dog WIN field trials or just compete in them? How many blue ribbons did the setter win this year? Regarding style, he was probably right. Does your dog point like this?
or like this?
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Rhonda
Junior
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 43
Location: SW Iowa
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We can agree to disagree |
This was offered to you earlier and you wouldn't take it. You kept on bullying and antagonizing everyone on this board. Once Big Jim came back on the scene and confronted you......you backed down.
| Quote: | | I sure dont want to get banned, nor do I wish you to, so I will temper it. |
Why not? You have nothing to lose...you're VDD. I do have something to lose. I am a part of the GWP community. With that said, I see why you would want to be a part of this forum, because they are top notch dogs and superior animals.
So, like I say....you provoked me. Let's play. And your road trip? I'll play any day!!
As for your dog out-hunting the setter....you don't tell people that it was setter pup that was still being developed (thus the e-collar). I would hope that your 6 year old dog could beat it. If you want a pat on the back, you'll have to move your hand over to make room for mine.
Jim West
We can only be what we give ourselves the power to be
United we Stand, Divided we Fall |
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whiskerdog1
Master
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The problem I have with only judging a dog for a few hours of it's life is that it can go on and kill the neighbors pet and bite the grandkids and the owner keeps selling puppies and collecting stud fees |
So can a Trial Dog..
At least In the VDD, the Dogs are Judged 2-3 times.
They are handled by3-4 strangers and probed, have their testes & Other parts checked, bites, ear, feet, coat, hips and a full exam for 45 minutes.
They are also around many other dogs and people.
Ive yet to see any 'happening'
And a Stud can only be bred 6xs per year.
If anything, the VDD is producing very Sound dogs.
The AKC has no such requirements, Not even close
| Quote: |
Why don't they trial here? Because we want to see a dog that points? |
Trialing is a Dinosaur.
Its too expensive and its too artificial, its losing its luster. You know it, I know it.
Secondly, these dogs arent bred to look good off a horse at 500-1000 meters, on a 'course'. They are bred to find game, retrieve it and be a no nonsense meat dog. Often the twain dont meet. Ive got stats to prove it.
The Only DD I knew that ran with Longtails was my Dogs Grandsire who ran a Midwest State Open Phez Tourney-Wild Birds. 5 Longtails ahead had 0 finds. He won the Tourney with the most finds. German Import-Timo V Richtof.
Theres a reason the DD/PP/DK Euro Dogs are making inroads and taking the market among hunters. It aint the price or the easy breeding program either.
If anything, its ultra restrictve
A Breeder can make 0 money in this system. Its a labor of love.
Tony,
I dont know how many points this trial dog has. I dont really care. WEe never discussed trialing, or the VDD.
He likes his dog, I like mine.
He needs an Ecollar to control his 2 yr old dog I dont. Mine is trained to whistle, hand and voice.
Takes hand signals and angles on retrieves as well.
| Quote: | | The GWP's don't have 5 "families of type"...they have ONE standard. |
The Origins of the Breed Do!
1 Standard But with alot of variance Within That Standard! Of Performance
Weak dogs dont make it in the VDD. They cant be bred. There is QC-Quality Control.
Your Club and Registry has NONE! You have No room to jaw wag.
Rhonda hon, read a book, please. Whens the last time you read?
| Quote: | | These are not Cockers with color divisions, or Dachshunds with Mini/Standard size divisions. |
The DD is a Performance Bred animal that is barely 100 years old.
The Club sees fit to allow some variance for now with wide berth for type
Still the VDD dogs are often distinct, recognizeable in comparison to the American Wirehaired Pointers that you display, no offense of course.
Your counterpart said it himself. Bulky, Beardy I think were his words.
Tony..Im pleased with the Point intensity from Mine.
It wont win trials, but I dont care about ribbons. I like full gamebags of Phez.
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Tony
Master
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 197
Location: Iowa
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony wrote: | | The problem I have with only judging a dog for a few hours of it's life is that it can go on and kill the neighbors pet and bite the grandkids and the owner keeps selling puppies and collecting stud fees |
| whiskerhog1 wrote: | | So can a Trial Dog.. |
If we think the dog is psycho, we won't have anything to do with it. Remember, we see the dog at every trial. We see it in competition, we see it on the stake-out, we reach in it's kennel and haul it to the line when we drive the dog wagon.
| whiskerhog1 wrote: | | At least In the VDD, the Dogs are Judged 2-3 times. |
Only 2-3 times in their whole life. Our dogs are judged at every trial they compete in. Some dogs run in 20-30 stakes a year.
| whiskerhog1 wrote: | | They are handled by3-4 strangers and probed, have their testes & Other parts checked, bites, ear, feet, coat, hips and a full exam for 45 minutes. |
I have been to these test and the exams are nowhere near as extensive as you claim. I'm calling Bull Shit here...
| whiskerhog1 wrote: | | They are also around many other dogs and people. |
Right! On a 2' leash. There is a reason that DD's are not tested with a bracemate.
| whiskerhog1 wrote: | | If anything, the VDD is producing very Sound dogs. |
Someday I should sit down and make a list of all of the DD's that I know of that had to be put down because they killed the neighbors dog or bit a kid.
| whiskerhog1 wrote: | | The Only DD I knew that ran with Longtails was my Dogs Grandsire who ran a Midwest State Open Phez Tourney-Wild Birds. 5 Longtails ahead had 0 finds. He won the Tourney with the most finds. German Import-Timo V Richtof. |
I am not familiar with this game. Is this one of them run-and-gun, point-or-scoop competitions? Wild birds? Bull Shit; I'm not buying this either.
BTW, you call this a point??? The "trialer" was correct. It is common knowledge among American Wirehaired Pointer owners that the birds pointed with both style and intensity taste better. Just because my dogs look good on point doesn't mean they don't find gobs of birds too.
PS: Does the VDD give an award to the GWP Forum Troll of the Year? We used to think Jon was a pain in the ass, but at least he has the knowledge and background to back up his side of the debate. You own your first DD and everything else is hearsay, folk lore, or something you read in a book or on the internet.  |
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Rhonda
Junior
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 43
Location: SW Iowa
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Rhonda hon, read a book, please. Whens the last time you read? |
You are a condescending, disrespectful mental midget. To change the term does not make it any less offensive. However, you obviously are not man enough to be good to your word...you told Jim you respect me..HA! I call Bull Shit here!
Anyways, I read often. AND I read a variety of things. When is the last time you read something and understood it? When was the last time you read something that wasn't the VDD standard? When was the last time that you read something for what it was, rather than twisting it to fit your own agenda?
| Quote: | that the birds pointed with both style and intensity taste better. Just because my dogs look good on point doesn't mean they don't find gobs of birds too.
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Tony, I heard that, too! Guess we don't know what a bad bird tastes like!
Rhonda
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whiskerdog1
Master
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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Tony..the temperment problems today are in the GWPs and GSPs
I owned one.
They are almost nonexistent in the DDs
I sent you video of a Dachshund that any other dog wouldve attacked and killed, my old German Shepherds for sure, but the DD it growled and lunged at did nothing.
| Quote: | | If we think the dog is psycho, we won't have anything to do with it |
As if trial dogs with poor temperments never are bred? Dogs lunge at people such events. I Personally know people that will attest to this fact. Nothing is done. From GWPs to Spinones. Growling, lunging. Would get the dog banned in the VDD.
Youre post is a joke.
You never been to a DD breed Show.
You have no interest in the breed.
My dog was personally examined for over 1 hour.
They even evaluated her in every gait, outdoors, and part of why it took so long. We had to make way outside and venture to where we could run.
Her coat hairs were pulled and measured.
She was tested for height and length, toes, feet, teeth, ears, eyes, all evaluated. First by an Apprentice (20 minutes), then the other Judges.
It is all of 45 minutes for that exam.
Tony, really you talk out of your behind.
The more discerning of the viewers here, know this.
Your a trialer, focus on winning, ribbons and style.
Im a versatile hunter, focused on humane kills and full game bags.
| Quote: |
, you call this a point?? |
Yes, she clearly marked game from 10-15 yards away. And I bagged that Quail.
You call yours a GWP?
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Last edited by whiskerdog1 on 11/19/09, 11:37 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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whiskerdog1
Master
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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The Last Book I read was this...
Cant recommend it enough. Im working on 911 Debunking the Debunking, and 'Israel Lobby' by Walt & Mersheimer, a Best seller as well.
Its free online, but I have the hardback. Save you $25
Copyright 1962
The Plot Against The Church, Maurice Pinay
http://www.catholicvoice.co.uk/pinay/
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whiskerdog1
Master
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | omeday I should sit down and make a list of all of the DD's that I know of that had to be put down because they killed the neighbors dog or bit a kid. |
BS statment
GWPs and GSPs are far more unstable
We dont have issues
Stupidity is common in America and on this forum. It applies to dog ownership as well and the responsibilities that come with it.
Id hate to see you with a real dominant breed, like a Working dog.
Maybe Cesar Milan could teach you to teach your dog.
| Quote: |
I am not familiar with this game. Is this one of them run-and-gun, point-or-scoop competitions? Wild birds? Bull Shit; I'm not buying this either. |
I dont know if it was SD, MN...but it was a State Open Championship, early 90s.
Do the research if you wish.
Timo #1 Hegewald dog, Won the Tourney and was last dog to run
5 Longtails ahead had 0 finds.
My understanding is it was wild birds, like a coverdog trial
Your language is crass and classless.
| Quote: | | Right! On a 2' leash. There is a reason that DD's are not tested with a bracemate. |
How will runing braces on hare tracks or duck retireves offer anything?
Field work is judges each individual dog. No reason To brace, though Id be fine with it if they decided to.
No collars either, or spotters
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Deb Finstad
Junior
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 71
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: 11/19/09, 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | whiskerhog1 wrote:
They are handled by3-4 strangers and probed, have their testes & Other parts checked, bites, ear, feet, coat, hips and a full exam for 45 minutes.
I have been to these test and the exams are nowhere near as extensive as you claim. I'm calling Bull Shit here... |
Well Tony, If you find the AKC dog show uninteresting, it unlikely you lasted long at an VDD breed show. Unless you have a strong interest in confirmation you'd be on your knees begging to go out and watch the grass grow within a few minutes & probably would have missed some of the action. I even do have a pretty good interest but, only lasted about four dogs. If Ned hadn't been there to speak with it probably would have only been two dogs.
Although the exam is closer to 20-25 minutes at the ones I've attended, whiskerdog's account of a breed show examination is accurate. At least three judges and, often times, an apprentice. The dog is measured (Ht & length), and given a very thorough inspection. I've not been in the VDD that long and don't know if this has been conducted here in the USA for the entire time or not. I also don't know if a breed show is a requirement or option in attaining breedable status however it is quite intimate and most likely does weed out a certain number of dogs. I do know that now, any dog someone wants to breed most likely does participate. |
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