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2009 National Catalog
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 11/18/09, 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what started as a conversation between members of the GWPCA has turned into a non productive argument being fueled by people who do not own this breed and are not members of the GWPCA.

It would seem to me, it's time to call it a night.
Good night Gracie!
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Deb Finstad
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PostPosted: 11/18/09, 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you considered have a section of the website available only to members of the GWPCA? There are topics that should be open to discussion but, due to this type of interference, people may hesitate to post.

Deb
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 11/19/09, 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb...
Pictures have been posted of VDD (Drahthaar) dogs for all to critique and evaluate. They are not club member only, they are for ALL of the World Public to view and See!
Why are some so thin skinned, Here?

I will be the first to praise and applaud a decent GWP when I see one.
There was a gentelman here (Chris) that had a nice Navhda dog, titled him very early and hunted him often. Thats the kind of dog I like to see.

Its the lies, distortions, untruths, half truths and misconceptions of those with an agenda and/or bias, that makes these discussions what they are.

Jim/Rhonda commented on a DD and its light coloring.
Quote:
Awful light pigment and an awful lot of hair!

Jim has not grasped or been educated to understand that those are Dead Hairs, that simply need Strip Combed out.

Many New DD owners were never given instruction on proper Stripping technique, me included. And its fairly easy.

The Perfect coat Is wash-n-wear, but many DDs & Wirehaired breeds dont have the perfect coat, rather a Good coat, that requires a minimum amount of maintenance. including Stripping once or twice per year.

Jim/Rhona also commented on a DD running head low in Europe at testing time,
Quote:
Look how they run, Tony. (Don't know why this one is so small...you can go to the site and see it better.) This is not the type of gait that I would want a dog to have. It is cumbersome and expends a lot of extra energy

That dog was tracking a Wild Hare, in distances well over 1000 meters, a mortal sin for your bird dawgs & Pointer wannabes.
Tests there are Run on Wild game, very little is articificial. It aint planted chickens from the 4 wheeler big Jim.

Quote:
The German dogs are much darker and much larger...bulky, almost.

They follow the Standard set forth By the Breed Founders, that you despise so much.
Buy a Pointer and End the Masochism, its gots to be hard for you, Jim.
This is like the Blind leading the blind here.


Quote:
Tony, these guys get to test on a checkcord

Is it really necessary to comment on remarks that dont even warrant an intelligent response?
Far as the lead goes, ALL dogs are Required to be On LEAD & under control, until they are released to Search, Fetch or Track game.

This makes my point of the uninformed.
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Tony
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PostPosted: 11/19/09, 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a hard time believing that the first DD's imported to the US were similar to the heavy, low-headed, rabbit-pointing DD's that we see today. Since the breed was younger and they probably had better bird hunting back then, I imagine the DD's that appealed to the Americans performed more like a PP or DK. Even the DD guys that I hunt with strive for a classier dog than what the DD judges are looking for.

Why do we rarely see a photo of a DD on point?

Because pointing is not as important to the Germans as tracking, retrieving, cat killing, and a big beard. If you want to see a DD on a stylish point, look at the dogs bred by Americans for western wild bird hunting.

I have hunted over this DD and several of her ancestors. IMO, she is the whole package, but the judges think she runs too fast, finds too many birds, and she isn't big enough. Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: 11/19/09, 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why do we rarely see a photo of a DD on point?
Because pointing is not as important to the Germans as tracking, retrieving, cat killing, and a big beard. If you want to see a DD on a stylish point, look at the dogs bred by Americans for western wild bird hunting.


Come on Tony...not this sh*t again
Go to the German Link on the VDD site and visit the websites, plenty there, and many dogs sold to Euro Bird hunters in Italy, Spain and Hungary-places that have significant bird numbers.
Bird numbers are way down in Germany, have been for years.
Hunters there are responsible by the landowners and government and laws, for managing game and/or nuisance animals.

Boar, hare, deer are taken in mass numbers. Partridge and pheasant complete the list.
I have the actual numbers of game taken in Germany recently, but would need to find it somewhere.
All German DDs Are Tested on Wild Phez/quail/partridge for the Pointing and field portion of their testing.

Quote:

I have a hard time believing that the first DD's imported to the US were similar to the heavy, low-headed, rabbit-pointing DD's that we see today.


I have photos of the early DDs, in America. They havent changed.
Medium to large size..from 63-68cm, thats pushing 27.5" tall on the high end.
If you waterfowl or track, you prefer a larger boned dog, and many still pace themself to hunt as long as you wish, at foot hunters pace.
Im fine with leggier dog provided the other versatile elements are there, but perfer a sqare, well balanced dog. There are a few leggy DD sStud Site-Cato Richtof & Ace Ritterburg come to mind.

Western US bred DDs have no more or less bird pointing accumen.
They simply adjust to the terrain and learn the game.

My buddys dog in the photo I presented, had his DD open up to 400-500 meters hunting in New Mexico, and was effective on quail, sharpie grouse, & jackrabbits etc.
Here in our Ohio Grouse woods and CRP croplands hunting phez, he doesnt get beyond 150 meters.

This is just 1 Southern US Breeder with dogs placed all across the USA, from Alaska to Mexico, NY to TX.
They dont seem to have any problem with any game and some point photos for you too, Tony
http://www.vommoorehaus.com/feathered_game.htm
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Tony
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PostPosted: 11/19/09, 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why don't I see any Moorehaus dogs in the pedigrees of the DD's that impress me? I have hunted over a dog bred by him, and the DD's that I hunt with are in another league when it comes to hunting and pointing wild birds.

Forrest is a mover and shaker in the club, so newbies like you accept what he produces as the standard. He is also one of the judges that couldn't believe that the bitch pictured above could smell birds while running as fast as she does. The fact that she found and pointed more birds than what was planted that day couldn't convince him that she was hunting. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: 11/19/09, 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why don't I see any Moorehaus dogs in the pedigrees of the DD's that impress me?

Uhhh.....hes in the South.
Maybe thats a reason. And a fairly new kennel.
Im not sure, dont own any of his dogs or promote his kennel. Others seem happy.
Just showing you photos of pointing dogs.

Forrest has a nice video of Versatile DDs on his Home Page.
Dove Hunting, Quail Hunting, Boar Hunting, Elk Tracking with Kentucky Fish & Wildlife, and Duck Hunting on his turf.


Quote:
Forrest is a mover and shaker in the club, so newbies like you accept what he produces as the standard.

Im not in 'The Club' except a dues paying member.
Ive owned a DD 8 years, researched the breed years prior to and hunted and seen well over 150-200 dogs.
Im not a newbie, my dear Tony.
Rather your false statements, hearsay and exaggerations seem newbie ish. So If the shoe fits...

Forrest is well respected by his peers, a blood tracking afficionado, he hunts his dogs & is committed to the breed. Also a Breed judge. He is also a human & Im sure makes mistakes. Someone got dinged a point on their field test and get their panties in a wad and youre promoting nonsense.
He apprenticed my dog at our breed show. Thats the extent to which I know him.

You guys are really something...pissin & moanin, very little nice to say.
Yet youve Ruined the Breed, for all intents and purposes for your own devices and afflictions of 'trial sport' chasing the elusive FC.

We are the ones Perpetuating The Breed and continuing the tradition.


Rhonda...those photos are a little better example of the breed, though youve still got a long way to go to even get close to getting it back to standard.
Must be sad really. Very masochistic crowd.
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Rhonda
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PostPosted: 11/19/09, 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whiskerdog;

These are the facts. The people that you are being so incredibly rude to do NOT own DDs. They own GWPs.

The DDs have a VDD standard to which they conform to. The members of this organization will defend it.

The GWPs have an AKC standard to which the conform to. The members of this organization will defend it.

Neither breed has perfect dogs. Breeders of each breed are continuing to breed with the goal of a great representation of the breed standard in both function and form.

Your personal attacks have gotten absolutely out of control. The comments of masochism and contempt for the standard(which are getting monotonous) ...and many of the other comments that have spewed forth from you are derogatory and unnecessary. One can express their opinion without having to be mean-spirited. This type of activity only puts people on the defensive and causes argument (as has been proven here), rather than productive conversation.

It is obvious to me that we need to agree to disagree. (Even the VDD site has a less than friendly statement about the GWP. I personally just tell people that VDD is a separate registry with different testing standards.) You keep buying DDs and those of us that have GWPs will keep buying them.

After being called a liar and being told that money is my God, I have no respect for you. You don't know me and had no business attacking me.

I hope you can find some happiness and fulfillment in your life by fixing the split that is occurring in the VDD.

Rhonda
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 11/19/09, 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I hope you can find some happiness and fulfillment in your life by fixing the split that is occurring in the VDD.


Wrong Registry, Rhonda dear. The Splits are in the AKC Breed.
Theres no split within the VDD.
One sanctioning testing and registration body & members adhere to the bylaws or get booted.
You may see different 'type' but thats based on logistics of where and what one hunts. The dog is still required to test and complete all versatile testing.


Quote:
The GWPs have an AKC standard to which the conform to. The members of this organization will defend it.

Fine, but its not the same standard as the VDD, the Parent organization and those who Founded the breed.
The AKC has a standard but NO testing, limitations or quality control regarding Breeding. Anyone can breed Any dog. Perhaps its MONEY related, sorry to use that word in front of you.


Quote:

Your personal attacks have gotten absolutely out of control

Sorry you feel that way, I didnt attack anyone, just the philosophy of rationalizing the irrational, that I see present in your club and its members. Im actually a very nice and humble man.


Quote:
VDD is a separate registry with different testing standards

It is.
For all intents and purposes the separate registries have created Separate Breeds.
The ABDA Gamebred American Pitbull Terrier, is Not the same breed as the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier.
Ask any Pit Man.
He will tell you. Or youre welcome to test your Staffies mettle in the pit and put your money where your mouth is.
I believe the DD and the GWP are separate breeds for all intents and purposes.

The Cocker, The Springer were once the Same breed as well.
Now we have mulitple types and separate breeds. It happens through selective breeding, or lack thereof

Quote:
The GWPs have an AKC standard to which the conform to. The members of this organization will defend it.

I see that in the photos from the Nationals. Defend away.



Quote:
I have no respect for you.

Likewise I suppose but sorry you feel that way.
But I wish you well and hope to see your dogs running with the English Pointers one day soon & bringin home the ribbons.
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 11/19/09, 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mr Whisker
Did you know the GWP standard was written many years before the DD ever had a written breed standard?

Check it out... I'm sure with your astuteness you will be able to find the facts.

Fact is, the Germans wrote their breed standard to fit their needs and what THEY wanted in their dogs. No problem for us, we don't own DD's. We have no argument with what the DD folks want to do with the DD. And we expect no argument from the DD folks to what we want in our GWP's.

8 whole years in the breed? Wow, that's impressive. That's less then the lifespan of one dog. When you have owned several generations, then maybe you can come back here and tell us all about your experience with the breed, how to breed them, what to look for and how they should be.

You have indeed been rude to many here. This board is owned and operated by the GWPCA. Visitors are welcome, but we expect you to be courteous and have respect for others who are posting their opinions.

I don't believe you ever see GWP people on DD boards spewing and sputtering about how we are superior, how the VDD is ruining the dog, or any such thing. It always seems to be the other way around.

So, lets just remember you are a guest here. OK?
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PostPosted: 11/19/09, 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whiskerdog1 wrote:
Yet youve Ruined the Breed, for all intents and purposes for your own devices and afflictions of 'trial sport' chasing the elusive FC.


If ruining a breed means turning it into something that we can hunt and compete with without the baggage associated with the European traditions, then consider me guilty.

There are many more advantages to our putting a brace of dogs in front of a judge every weekend than your once or twice in a lifetime test. We see the dog on good days and bad days. With male and female bracemates. We know who is willing to hunt with class and honor another dogs point and who will blink backs or steal points. We know who wants to race and tag, and we know the dogs that would rather piss on everything or hunt their bracemate instead of birds. We know the dogs that are honest because we find them standing on a limb find, and we know the dogs that would rather rip and catch a bird (because wirehairs love to retrieve them back to the handler). Most of this probably sounds foreign to you, but we see it at the trials and we see it when we hunt with our friends and their dogs. You guys have generations of test score, but they don't have a lot to do with a classy brace of bird dogs.
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Rhonda
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PostPosted: 11/19/09, 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whiskerdog;

Quote:
Rhonda dear

Do not "dear" me. When not used as a term of endearment, this is a chauvinistic remark from a mental midget, and we do not have a friendly relationship.

Quote:
You may see different 'type' but thats based on logistics of where and what one hunts


As I believe you said to Tony earlier...c'mon, not this again!! If I am seeing different "types" in the VDD, there is a split. A standard is gospel and all dogs should look the same. This is what you are preaching.

Quote:
I didnt attack anyone

That's a lie. If you really believe that, you had better read some of your previous posts.


Quote:
The ABDA Gamebred American Pitbull Terrier, is Not the same breed as the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier.
Ask any Pit Man.
He will tell you. Or youre welcome to test your Staffies mettle in the pit and put your money where your mouth is.


I don't have a Pit...so what does this have to do with anything? (Not to mention, dog fighting is illegal!! Duh.)


Quote:
hope to see your dogs running with the English Pointers one day soon & bringin home the ribbons.


I do compete in open company all across the country and am quite successful now. Those dogs produce intelligent and hardworking hunting dogs for folks all across the country, too.

Rhonda
Read. Comprehend. Absorb.
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PostPosted: 11/19/09, 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If ruining a breed means turning it into something that we can hunt and compete with without the baggage associated with the European traditions, then consider me guilty.


DDs only Exist, TO Hunt.
Its what and Why they are Bred. And they do it all over the world. There is life outside of AmeriKa.
Ive photos of DDs retrieving seals in Iceland, tracking Implala & Gazelle in Africa, Baying boars & Bear in Russia, Pointing gamebirds on all continents.

What a silly notion you have. What a Silly person you are.
DDs here dont compete per se, but the few that have (Lutz Cadenburg-Import DD, was one of the Most Successful and influential 'GWPs" in the entire Breed here in the USA. That has to Kill you, Tony
In Europe DDs trial, and they do well.

DDs are also titled in HRC, Schutzhund and I suspect NSTRA, when someone decides they want to chase planted quail on a 40 acre plot in a 30 minute times event. Maybe even Boar baying contests, who knows?
But mostly they are Hunters. And will remain so.

Quote:
There are many more advantages to our putting a brace of dogs in front of a judge every weekend than your once or twice in a lifetime test.

The 2-3 lifetime tests are Breeding Requirements for that which they were and are bred.
What one wishes to do afterwards with his dog, albeit Hunt, compete, or chase planted chickens for excitement is his prerogative.


Quote:
You guys have generations of test score, but they don't have a lot to do with a classy brace of bird dogs.

None of this has anything to do with Breeding better dogs. It wasnt how the breed came about or continues to thrive.
Its about ego.
Classy is, as Classy does.
I was told by a trialer 2 weeks ago mine didnt have much 'Style' and this was after my dog found 3xs as many birds as his, did all of the retrieve work and without the Ecollar he used on his.


Quote:

If I am seeing different "types" in the VDD, there is a split.

Those that dont know or learn from history..
Research a bit dear, it will come to you. I will get you started...thank me later.
The Breed itself was/ is divided into types, from the emerging 5 in the Breed.

Quote:
Five "Types"

In breeding, "TYPE" denotes an IDEAL, or a goal in breeding. Further stated, it is all of the desired qualities in a single dog. In addition, the genetic combination must be so strong that its effects persist generation after generation. Since "type", when achieved, can be consistently reproduced, it should serve as a basis toward which to strive.

As the Drahthaar made rapid advances, five distinct "types" began to emerge.
These family types were not intentional, but were the chance culmination of effort from over a century of searching and breeding.
Each type represents a perfect balance performance, coat, conformation, and temperament, and each possesses a unique character and spirit.

The family types are named for the first dog which both exhibited the characteristic performance and the ability to consistently reproduce those same qualities through several generations.

These five DD family types were without exception, first manifested by males, however, there was a long line of bitches, which were proven carriers of the traits.
The five existing family types are listed and described below:



Quote:

Not to mention, dog fighting is illegal!! Duh.)

So is gambling. But we play cards at my house every Friday evening.
You and all beginners are cordially invited.
I wont even discuss how Americans have ruined every breed they were ever given either.


Quote:
I don't have a Pit...so what does this have to do with anything

Im just making a point about how breeds are easily ruined and diverge into different breeds.

How anyone can take such a Regal and Versatile Breed and play Mad Scientist with it, to satisfy their own avarice and petty desires, and then rationalize it as something good, is beyond me.
I will never understand it.
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Deb Finstad
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PostPosted: 11/19/09, 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Deb...
Pictures have been posted of VDD (Drahthaar) dogs for all to critique and evaluate. They are not club member only, they are for ALL of the World Public to view and See!
Why are some so thin skinned, Here?

I will be the first to praise and applaud a decent GWP when I see one.
There was a gentelman here (Chris) that had a nice Navhda dog, titled him very early and hunted him often. Thats the kind of dog I like to see.

Its the lies, distortions, untruths, half truths and misconceptions of those with an agenda and/or bias, that makes these discussions what they are.

Jim/Rhonda commented on a DD and its light coloring.


This thread started as a question about how something was handled at Nationals and ended up as a GWP vs. DD debate brought about by a member of the VDD. The evaluation of pictures was started by you, another member of the VDD.

...and the dog does have a light colored coat. It can be stripped out some but, it still going to be light colored. The VDD has standards and goals it is trying to achieve and, overall the coats are better then the GWP but, not every DD is a 12/12 or even at 9/9. Your dog isn't - my DD is a slick and can't even get a coat score. There is no perfect system.

The GWPCA gets to set their own standards based on what the club members want. If you wish to have a voice in these decisions you can apply to join the club but, until then, you don't get to have a say. If you want to argue this on other websites - fine but, don't come their website and ridicule their dogs.

Rhonda & Jim, Bernee, Tony - congratulations on your placements at Nationals. Heard it was a little wet down there.

Deb

BTW - I have actually seen that NAVHDA dog you liked, he ran in a hunt test I was at a couple of years ago and is a nice boy. Benelli's mom was a DD with a pretty nice pedigree and his dad....well, that side of the pedigree was full of FCs. Maybe you like trial dogs better then you thought.
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PostPosted: 11/19/09, 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ronda,Were you at the same National I was at?.......I heard some of the dogs had left by then.I suggest that next year, we hold the National trial first and let the show have whats left! ....bigoak


Not to get on topic but, I kind of think Vern(?) has a good idea here - start with the trial and have the show the last weekend.
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