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Tony
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Joined: 22 Oct 2002
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Location: Iowa

PostPosted: 11/20/09, 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whiskerhog1 wrote:
Tony..the temperment problems today are in the GWPs and GSPs


Care to elaborate?

whiskerhog1 wrote:
I owned one.


So you are saying that you owned a GWP/GSP cross, a GSP and a GSP, or you couldn't tell whether it was was a GWP or a GSP???

whiskerhog1 wrote:
They are almost nonexistent in the DDs


Either you have overdosed on DD Kool-Aid, smoke too much of the DD peace pipe, or your head is firmly planted up your...in the sand, if you believe this.

whiskerhog1 wrote:
I sent you video of a Dachshund that any other dog wouldve attacked and killed, my old German Shepherds for sure, but the DD it growled and lunged at did nothing.


I'm not going to watch another one of your silly videos; unless they feature weinerdogs humping teddy bears...

whiskerhog1 wrote:

Tony wrote:
If we think the dog is psycho, we won't have anything to do with it

As if trial dogs with poor temperments never are bred? Dogs lunge at people such events. I Personally know people that will attest to this fact. Nothing is done. From GWPs to Spinones. Growling, lunging. Would get the dog banned in the VDD.
Youre post is a joke. Smile


Adj. 1. hearsay - heard through another rather than directly

I wouldn't buy a pup from such a dog, but you DD guys consider it a neccessary evil in order to maintain the breeds "sharpness". Rolling Eyes


whiskerhog1 wrote:
You never been to a DD breed Show.
You have no interest in the breed.

My dog was personally examined for over 1 hour.
They even evaluated her in every gait, outdoors, and part of why it took so long. We had to make way outside and venture to where we could run.

Her coat hairs were pulled and measured.
She was tested for height and length, toes, feet, teeth, ears, eyes, all evaluated. First by an Apprentice (20 minutes), then the other Judges.
It is all of 45 minutes for that exam



Have you switched from performance test to dog shows? I was wondering where your 3rd "test" came from.

whiskerhog1 wrote:
Your a trialer, focus on winning, ribbons and style.
Im a versatile hunter, focused on humane kills and full game bags.


I focus on classy bird dogs that I can take anywhere and hunt with anyone without being ashamed of their performance or manners. It takes a special dog and handler to consistently be in the money at a field trial; believe it or not, the dogs are being judged on their bird hunting abilities. I guided wild bird hunts with my dogs for 10 years (1995-2005). The limit for pheasant is 3/day. I have butchered thousands of wild birds, so not only do I focus on winning when I am playing the game, I am also quite good at filling a game bag.
whiskerhog1 wrote:

Tony wrote:

, you call this a point??

Yes, she clearly marked game from 10-15 yards away. And I bagged that Quail.


Did you plant that quail, or did the bird boy at the game farm do it for you?

whiskerhog1 wrote:
You call yours a GWP?


Touche'
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Tony
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PostPosted: 11/20/09, 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whiskerdog1 wrote:


Your language is crass and classless.


Maybe, but my spelling and punctuation are impecable. Wink
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 11/20/09, 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

posts full of political nonsense will be and have been deleted.
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 11/20/09, 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony..
I have a paid a game farm to plant birds, once in my life.
I have guided on one of those hunts, once in my life.
I Wont do it ever again.
I also ran NSTRA with Planted birds, Once in my life.

I only hunt wild and liberated birds.
Im fortunate to have access to a few private clubs that raise birds but dont plant them via 4 wheelers.
That dog has had somewhere between 600-800 game birds shot over her, hundreds of ducks, dove and geese, a few deer, some critters, and done mostly guiding, but more with me hunting.

The picture you critiqued, My dog on point was at the end of a morning hunt on a 1500 acre farm with wild/liberated quail, I was loading up the truck, let her go before trekking home, and she found yet another bird that I snapped a photo of.

Hunt dogs dont care how they point birds. Its not an artificial set up. Birds are where they are.
If she winds from up high, I get a nice pretty point, as you say. I attached one with my buddys DD backing, her with a high head.
If shes trailing, she crouches like the Setters of ol'.
Either way, making game is pretty to me, I could care less if its high or a crouch.


Dual will not let me post in the context of explaing the history behind the breed, German engineering feats, and whys/hows of the breed so Im limited as to how and what I can post, but I will try.
Her forum, her rules and Im ok with that.

Weims arent known or villified by the likes of you, as a Sharp Breed.
Yet they had to pass and test a man-sharp test. Only versatile to do so.

Sharpness is in varying degrees.
There is fur and there is man. There is often little overlap.

Hounds are Fur Sharp.
But are also the most docile creatures around.
They are pack animals, not inclined to fight other dogs or bite people.
But they tear apart a coon or other game animal.

The Sharpness test was to insure that the dogs would not quit, even when in pain, or stress.
Predators also required removal.
Dogs were used to that end. Soft dogs that you prefer, are culls.
DKs-German Shorthairs and PP Pudelpointers also did Hardness tests, neither have been described by you as Biters..Same tests, but no remarks, huh Tony? All are Sound and stable dogs because of the testing, not in spite of it.

Tony...
Collectively you have Bastardized this breed.
You play 'mad scientist' with it and then call it a Creation.
But you are decaying the breed.
Money up and buy a Pointer. Deep down its what you want, and what you want to be.

Americans have collectively destroyed almost every working and sporting breed given to them...its a fact.

Trialing isnt helping the breeds, its hurting them
The President of AKC has admitted as much.
Dont like it, take it up with him.

Our Breed shows are a very thorough examination, much moreso Than a dog show, where A judge spends 5 minutes looking over a dog trotting in a circle vs 4 judges looking over every crevice of that animal and seeing it in all gaits.

tests:
1. VJP-NA test
2. HZP-Intermediate Test
3. Armbruster or Hegewald, if HZP & Breed show qualified
4. VGP-Finished dog
Those are 4 tests and all da,y and a 2 day evaluation, not a 30 minute timed event on a horse, hoping your dog doesnt run off the course, away from the spotter, and get lost.
5. Then there is the Breed test for us. This is just to breed.
If one wants ribbons, he can run NSTRA, HRC or other events.

In AKC, Nothing is required to breed, except being a dues paying member.
You have No QC, You really have no leg to stand on.
When you feel like trading up to a pointer, or heaven forbid, a more dominant animal, perhaps Cesar Milan can assist you in training.
He takes even the most hopeless of cases.

Take care good buddy.
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 11/20/09, 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whisker, I really can't imagine you are a teacher? For real? Honest to goodness a teacher of children?

Sorry, but I find that pretty down right scary! I certainly hope you don't speak to your students in the manner you are speaking here on a public forum.

I had a GWP in the late 1970's. She was a great dog, as a dog. The dogs I have today are 100% better dogs all around then she was. I also knew her mother, her father, and both grandparents. Todays dogs, todays GWP's have a ton more talent all around then any of them had. They are easier to train, they are more dependable around people, they are less destructive, they can cover more ground, they are better put together.

You see, some of us have been around a bit longer than 8 yrs. We have seen where this breed has come from. Back then we made sure we told people who asked that they were a couple of generations removed from the German dogs. German dogs were not highly thought of in those days. They were a bit unstable, more apt to bite you than wag a tail at you. Protective, yup, but not very discriminating in what they wanted to protect. In most cases, it was simply their personal space.

From the sounds of it, great strides have been made in stability of temperament in the DD, thank goodness for that.

I, personally, like my GWP's thank you very much. If I wanted a DD, I could certainly go and purchase one. Those who choose to do so I am sure are happy with their choice. Good for them as well.

Go hunt your dog, and enjoy yourself.
Dual
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 11/20/09, 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I teach Revisionist History. I can educate you about all of the lies in your history books and everything you were taught, See my WWW at the bottom.
Id recommend Anything by David Irving and Aleksandr Solzhenitzyn-Pulitzer Prize and Nobel Prize Winner, spent 10 years in the Gulag.
'Gulag Archipelago' is a Must read for anyone, to understand where we are eventually headed.


Quote:
Todays dogs, todays GWP's have a ton more talent all around then any of them had.

Navhda scores do not reflect that, Dual.
Lutz made his indelible mark and was never hunted before coming here. Few equalled his success.

I was into GSPs 20 years prior to DDs & owned 1 setter. Ive hunted since about 12, Had 2000 acres across the street from my home with rights to. Had dogs out daily. It was ideal. Now its all paved and condos.

My hunting took on more waterfowl, dove, bowhunting deer, and needed a coated meat dog. Thats why I got a DD. Wanted a PP, didnt want to wait for one. Lucky coincidence I guess.

My discussions with my Breeder (30+ years in the Breed) & the dog he bred to (Breed Warden, German Immigrant) indicate there's been little change in the DD.
More of them, but they are still the same dogs. Same standards.
Hunting fools, pretty consistent overall, but dogs & lines vary. Maybe a little more stable but were never unstable, just in the wrong hands. A dominant one Is not a beginner breed.


I also owned German Shepherds, Working Lines. Very Protective. Talk about a real dominant breed that you must supervise!
The Breed Standard for the DD/GWP says ALOOF. Or did. That doesnt mean friendly to all.

Its Not a Brittany! And Its Not a Setter.
Strangers think they have a right to touch my dogs. They DONT.
You enter my truck or home at you own risk. If the dog doesnt get you, my AK will.

I think Americans equate hunting dogs with a setter or labs.
A DD is neither and can be more like a Chessie. Which I also like.

I want a dog dependable with me and my family, thats it.
If one cant train them, control them, or be responsible, dont own them. Socializing is important with this breed, You want a watch dog, dont socialize.
IF you are to have them around people, then socialize, this has never been mentioned and I think a source of problems for those that have any incidents.
I wouldnt choose this breed if I wanted a therapydog, Id get a Golden Retreiver. These dogs require work, lots of it. If one hasnt the time,
Get a plug n play Pointer and be done with it.

Im Hunting grouse this weekend in the Hills. Might even get lucky and hit one or two.

Sorry this turned into a P*ssing match.
Best Wishes to you this Thanksgiving and Christ Mass season +
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Jon
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PostPosted: 11/21/09, 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It would seem to me, it's time to call it a night.
Good night Gracie!


A good idea.....

When winning is entailed, breeds become that which is most often rewarded. These dogs perpetuate the system....that is how long leg hair, body furnishings, etc have become the "norm" for show dogs. It started with the Oldmill dogs in the 60's, was firmly established with the Cassio/Laurwyn dynasty, and is now the "standard" for show dogs. Yes there are exceptions but the photos of the BIS winners through the years clearly proves the premise.

Trials have created a small, lighter framed, more "feminine" dog that can withstand the rigors of the sport. 23" and 55lb is probably the average, within the standard but pushing the boundaries. Again these dogs become the norm and perpetuate the "type" that the sport dictates. This is clearly evident when one looks at the high percentage of dogs produced by just a handful of sires.

I have no problem with folks enjoying their games. I just don't see much left of the standard, type and purpose of the breed with these dogs. There isn't much place for the "traditional" hard coated, versatile dog of substance within the "standards" that have been created by these activities..and so they are not found there.

The AKC system is not about breed prioroties..it is about the priorities of people....being in a Euro system, I have problems with the concept.


Good night Gracie.
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 11/21/09, 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So... what part of goodnight couldn't you agree with?
You just had to have the last word? Feel better now?
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RAKOWSKI33
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PostPosted: 11/24/09, 6:57 pm    Post subject: WOW! Reply with quote

This bulletin board has made me nautious once again.
I often ask myself why the heck do I even look at this...all it does is tick me off to no end?

National Field Events...Dual is right...you guys want dinner then why the heck don't you volunteer!?? The events commitee does enough planning, don't you think? Sounds like you need a hospitality chair for the field events too.

As far as separating, I hope we never do...it's not what this club is about and I strongly feel that those who wish to separate should...Get the heck out and start your own club, where you can whine and bitch and complain to yourselves.

We need to work against this "separation". Yes, those show dogs should be proving themselves in the field and not just the ring (very hard to do thought when you are a top special and your #1 job is to campaign! )
And yes...some of those field dogs need to work on their conformation.

I think we hopefully covered some ground about the coats, but it won't happen over night.
Don't knockTimo. He's an incredible dog and has a better temperament than I have seen on 75% of the male intact wires I have met! Very Happy Obviously like him since we are breeding to him Wink

Sigh.....
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Jon
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PostPosted: 11/24/09, 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck, Maura....you will not change an AKC club...impossible because its a democracy and the lowest common denominator will always govern. Euro clubs are decidedly NOT democracies....decisions are made....not voted on.
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lisapopescu
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PostPosted: 11/25/09, 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been following these comments since nationals. Honestly, BOTH sides could improve. I've seen "show" dogs that have great potential in the field but are with a owner/handler who chooses to show instead. I've been very disappointed to hear the negative comments from field/hunt people when a "show" dog has better potential than a dog from a line with only field/hunting titles. As breeders we should always try to improve the breed in all aspects.
It's amazing how many times I've hear the comment " I'm breeding my dog to a friend who has a friend who has a dog that is very birdy" Let's all buck up and PAY the stud fees to improve the breed in all aspects! Our breed has not been over bred and has the potential to remain a great sporting dog! Let's have positive support and stand united (I'm a Republican 100%)
Lisa
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