German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America
AKC Parent Club for the German Wirehaired Pointer
 
 ForumForum FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
 gwpca bulletin boardGWPCA Home Page   gwpca bulletin boardBulletin Board   gwpca bulletin boardGWPCA Rescue Page 

2009 National Catalog
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index -> Nationals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tony
Master
Master


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 197
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon wrote:
So, which of these show dogs will be producing your next pup?


Considering our lack of wild birds, I doubt if I will be buying another pup in the near future. I ran my latest project in the Futurity, and she did quite well despite her inexperience. You will be glad to know that her pedigree goes back to Lutz at least 10 times. I'll post a link to a photo so Whiskerhog can tell me how ugly she is.

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1582

BTW, three of the dogs that placed in the Futurity were great-great grandchildren of Lutz and one was a great-great-great grandson.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
whiskerdog1
Master
Master


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony,
I will not insult you or your dog.
If you ask, I will be honest, just as Id expect you to be with me.
I really dont know what color that dog is, it isnt within the VDD standard though. Looks like a midnight breeding registration.

You should take up waterfowling, Tony.
Or Lease some property with like minded folks, and raise your own birds and hunt facility.

Amerika has gone from 2 Million family Farmers 40 years ago, to less than 200,000 today and those are mostly Agrifarms. Corporate Businesses

The Agrifarms are using poor farming practices with chemicals, herbicides, pesticides, Genetic Modified seeds, pollution etc
They dont care about CRP, game populations and hunters...its a sad fact

Ohio was a top 10 phez state in 1960s, now Phez theyre all about gone in big numbers.
Lease it and hunt, or waterfowl.

Back to the point...
Isnt it a bit hypocritical for you to consider Lutz, a German DD import in your GWP breeding program/pup decision, or do you overlook it, because he was a winner and great sire?
_________________
Real men hunt Wire Dogs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tony
Master
Master


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 197
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whiskerdog1 wrote:
Isnt it a bit hypocritical for you to consider Lutz, a German DD import in your GWP breeding program/pup decision, or do you overlook it, because he was a winner and great sire?


Lutz was before my time, so I never got to see him in action. I really don't go out of my way to look for him in a pedigree, he just seems to be in the pedigree of a lot of dogs that I like. Unfortunately, he must have been at least 1/4 pointer because I keep getting these little white dogs with poor coats when I buy linebred Lutz pups.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
whiskerdog1
Master
Master


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Unfortunately, he must have been at least 1/4 pointer because I keep getting these little white dogs with poor coats when I buy linebred Lutz pups
.

Wouldnt have anything to do with the American Wirehaired Pointer Bitches he was bred to, would it?

Lutz was 100% German Import dog. There was no pointer in that dog, unless you go back decades to when the Pudelpointer was created by pudel and pointer crosses.

Lease Hunt and/or Waterfowl or bust Tony.
The Bird hunting days of old are over, except for the Dakotas, Montana and a few select other places.
_________________
Real men hunt Wire Dogs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jon
Senior
Senior


Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 117

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always wondered why Lutz was used so little. Amazing story...6 month old pup sitting in a runway in some unknown kennel in north Germany. Comes to the US...finishes a show championship..STARTS his bird training at 3 and is a FC at 4...runs often in all breed stakes. Its like Lutz and the Sigurd dog were "pariahs". Lutz produced a lot of FC too...I don't think the Sigurd dog left any legacy to speak of.

Bred as close on Lutz as I could and always got dark dogs...I'd look at the bitch lines. I got great coats...the little Schnaps dog had a textbook coat, as did her litter sister. Looking at the pedigree, looks like you have more Cascade than anything else...why are you surprised at all the white?

About the coat, talk to Bernee....you can put coats on dogs in one generation according to her...last thing you should think about....worry about that later. Wink

Found lots of birds in ND this year...more than I expected. Moved 40-100 sharpies a day, and they didn't seem as touchy as late October sharpies should be. I know Ned said they were having problems west of the river.
Pheasant were down but not tough to find...lot of young second hatch birds.

The "beast" gave me a magic hour in the grass one day....over some real nifty bird work...

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dualgwp
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
Location: New Hope PA

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you, or anyone here know how many times Lutz was bred? Does anyone know what he produced, title wise?
_________________
visit my page to learn about German Wirehaired Pointers
http://germanwirehair.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tony
Master
Master


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 197
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dualgwp wrote:
Do you, or anyone here know how many times Lutz was bred? Does anyone know what he produced, title wise?


http://www.cadenberg.8k.com/custom2.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dualgwp
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 491
Location: New Hope PA

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to my records Lutz was bred 28 times. He did indeed produce 2 DC's, 3 FC's, 2 AFC's and 24 show Ch's. Pretty impressive.

Let's take another dog (a dog on our top producer list) who has been bred 51 times (at the date we did these stats, about 3 yrs ago) produced 3 DC's,6 FC's, 5 AFC's, 9 MHs and 20 show Ch's.

Now another male, a dog that was bred 8 times, produced 2 DC's, 4 FC's,1 AFC and 4 show Ch's (again at that time)

One more....Bred 13 times, produced 2 DC's, 3 FC's, 3 AFC's,3 MH's, 22 show CHs and a BIS dog.

All of the above dogs are deceased today.
_________________
visit my page to learn about German Wirehaired Pointers
http://germanwirehair.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Rhonda
Junior
Junior


Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 43
Location: SW Iowa

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon;

Jim West here....I think you need to worry about a split somewhere else...the VDD? I don't know for sure, nor do I care, but someone put these links up and I got to take a look at the German DD and the American DD.

These first pics are off the American site:




These are off of the Armbruster page from the American page:

This dog here is at the top of the site next to the logo. Awful light pigment and an awful lot of hair!

Doesn't look bulky enough to be pure DD.

DD or GSP?

Now for the German side:









Tony, these guys get to test on a checkcord!! I'm gonna have to talk to AKC about doing that. Maybe other training devices, too. Maybe they'll add the sit to make it harder, too.



The German dogs are much darker and much larger...bulky, almost.


Look how they run, Tony. (Don't know why this one is so small...you can go to the site and see it better.) This is not the type of gait that I would want a dog to have. It is cumbersome and expends a lot of extra energy.

If you guys don't think that you have a split among your own, you, too are "blind" because it is obvious to the eye.

Jim West
We can only be what we give ourselves the power to be
United we stand, divided we fall
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jon
Senior
Senior


Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 117

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I guess the comparison would be fair if we were comparing the "winning" dogs on both sides....but nice try. I was referring to the "fluffies" among your champions and BIS dogs, not someone's pet.

This doesn't give you pause to think...




Outside of a few hairs, there is no difference here. You've bred yourselves in a circle...wouldn't it have been easier to just buy a Pointer than to spend 50 years of breeding to recreate it....why reinvent the wheel? Now I realize that there are darker dogs too but these look like a large part of the "performance dogs"...small, light boned, narrow chested, Pointer look-a-likes. Everybody gets it except you guys.

Yes we have some soft coats as you have shown but we don't make BIS dogs out of them and put them up as an example of excellence



As far as performance, you can interchange dogs from a half dozen gun dog breeds...the only real difference is their appearance. When you give that up....why call it anything?? its just a technicality.

Rhonda,
Yes there are some bulky dogs...but there are 75,000 DD in Europe and so many of any type that this just isn't an issue. I can give you 50 stud dogs like this young dog...they're 70 lbs and 25" tall, probably too big for FT but they're right in the middle of our standard.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Rhonda
Junior
Junior


Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 43
Location: SW Iowa

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Its Self evident, or should be. Mostly size, coat, color and Im sure cooperation, lack of versatile ability if Im being honest.


You may personally have a problem with the size, but they are all within the standard. The smallest bitch, who is the winner in the photo in question, is mine and meets the VDD minimum, also. She is not much over the minimum...but within standard nonetheless. She can go all day long and floats across the ground with amazing speed and animation. Coat...I'm not playing in to that petty argument on the 4 dogs in the picture. Color. You finally said it....this is one of your biggest hang-ups, right here. At least you finally came out and stated it!! White is acceptable in our standard and each of these dogs has patches and roaning or ticking.

I remember when the white was still a bit "taboo" in the states...Today, I have calls for white dogs at a rate of probably 10:1 over any other color/pattern. We had the same situation here with the GSP. We have a FC and American Field 2x hour champ here that is solid liver....he is a gorgeous animal besides....and we can't pay anyone to breed to him. It's a shame; but it is what it is.

And, this is when you annoy me the most...WHAT IN THE H#@! WOULD YOU KNOW ABOUT THE COOPERATION OR AMOUNT OF VERSATILITY?!?!!?!? You don't know any one of these dogs. You are going on the assumption that a field trial dog is a renegade. You are also ASSUMING that these dogs don't have the versatile capacity. That's a bunch of crap!! I'd be willing to bet that 90% or more of the GWP's have the capacity to train for any of the VDD tests. They are truly versatile animals. This doesn't only apply to hunting styles, but the show ring, obedience, agility, therapy dogs and on and on. Each dog and it's owner work as a team and do what they enjoy and excel at.

Each dog has it's strengths and weaknesses in both form and function. There is no perfect dog....not even in the world of the VDD.

Quote:
I'm out of here...every time I hear you folks talk, I'm happier than ever I'm where I am (I'm sure you are too!!!).
You're still here! Cool

Whiskerdog; you may as well stop trying to provoke Jim. He meant what he said....trust me, when he is done, he is done!! If he were to run across you at an event and knew who you were, you wouldn't even get a handshake.

Quote:
Ive titled in multiple venues, including UKC HRC as well as the VDD system.


That's fine. How many dogs of how many different breeds have you developed into exceptional hunters? There is a huge difference in the amount of experience and knowledge that lends to a person.

Rhonda
Read. Comprehend. Absorb.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Rhonda
Junior
Junior


Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 43
Location: SW Iowa

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon,

Jim showed me the sites and we went to the Canadian branch, too. There is a split in your own breed, too, both type and color and you are venting on the GWP site instead.

Speaking of nice tries...
Quote:
I was referring to the "fluffies" among your champions and BIS dogs, not someone's pet.


These are Puppy field trial winners. They are not fluffy, nor are they BIS dogs....yet. The winning pup is in need of stripping and the third place pup is show groomed. He has one of the best coats I've ever felt on a dog.

The pointer picture is nice. The noses on those dogs match a lot of the noses we saw on the VDD sites.

Seriously though, you need to worry about the split in your VDD. If there are 75000 DD in Europe and the pictures on the site are representative of the "best", I'd hate to see those that didn't make it. What percentage of the 75000 show? test? And don't guess, give us proven and documented facts.

Jim and Rhonda
We can only be what we give ourselves the power to be
United we stand, Divided we fall
Read. Comprehend. Absorb.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
whiskerdog1
Master
Master


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The smallest bitch, who is the winner in the photo in question, is mine and meets the VDD minimum, also


I think thats a lie.
That Bitch is smaller than 57cm.

Most of the males seem very small as as well. Bottom of the standard, If that.
Probably not 50 lbs soaking wet. Thats an issue. Wont be dragging down any deer or battling currents at that size.


Quote:
Today, I have calls for white dogs at a rate of probably 10:1 over any other color/pattern.

Money is your God, and the root of all evil.


Quote:
You are going on the assumption that a field trial dog is a renegade.

I just hunted with another one, 2 weekends ago.
It was E collar'd (Mine wasnt & isnt) & all about run.
Dogs owner had the nerve to say mine wasnt that 'stylish on point', yet mine outfound His 8-2.
His doesnt retrieve Or 'do' cripples either.
I know enough about trials to know Im not interested, but if you enjoy it, thats fine.
Ive run NSTRA once, and outfound the resident 3x Champion Setter 3-2.
Not tooting my horn, its not my cup of tea, but gave me a measure of what I had. Fun $35.



Quote:
I'd be willing to bet that 90% or more of the GWP's have the capacity to train for any of the VDD tests

Any dog can Train!
If you can title, Then run the VHDA tests...they are similar. Talk is cheap.
Id say closer to 15-25%
Test day alot can happen. Fur, Pointing, Fetching, Water Work, tracking and Cooperation (among others) are all judged, as is the dogs temperment.


Quote:
Each dog has it's strengths and weaknesses in both form and function. There is no perfect dog....not even in the world of the VDD.

No, but We Have a Standard that is followed AND Quality Control in Our breeding.
You have contempt for such devices.


Quote:
How many dogs of how many different breeds have you developed into exceptional hunters?

6 dogs, 3 breeds
All were special, a few stand out, but my DD sets the bar for versatility and cripple work.
The GSPs I owned trained themselves and good bird dogs, but high strung, one speed, and offered little outside of field work. Temperment issues as well with small kids with one.
My Setter was a nice dog, specialist, Didnt retrieve.
Ive also owned 5 German Shepherds, dont own any presently but in the market.

Quote:

You finally said it

Finally? Ive been saying all along.
Those dogs should be spayed. They are Anathema to The Standard.
You have Contempt for the Breed Standard and what the Breed IS, as it was designed
You are fashioning a completely different breed, based on Your egos and affliction for competition.
You dont Like the DD, which is The True Breed, it hasnt changed or been altered.
Youre not building a better mousetrap.
Id suggest that you do yourself a favor and buy a Pointer and compete at the highest levels, with the breed that excels in that venue.

Why beat your head against a wall?
_________________
Real men hunt Wire Dogs


Last edited by whiskerdog1 on 11/18/09, 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Rhonda
Junior
Junior


Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 43
Location: SW Iowa

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I figured we would just get this out of the way. Here are the winners from the 2009 Nationals...show and field.

This dog won the National and Regional Specialty shows:









This bitch was Best of Opposite Sex in both the National and Regional Specialty shows:




This was the Junior Handler winner at the National Specialty. We are involving our youth....



This was the Junior Handler winner at the Regional Specialty.




This was the winner of the All-Star Invitational. It is open to DC, CH/AFC, CH/MH and CH/NAVHDA UT1....show and field titled.



This is the National Field Championship.




This is the National Amateur Field Championship.




Enjoy.

Rhonda
Read. Comprehend. Absorb.[/url][/quote]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jon
Senior
Senior


Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 117

PostPosted: 11/18/09, 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And, this is when you annoy me the most...WHAT IN THE H#@! WOULD YOU KNOW ABOUT THE COOPERATION OR AMOUNT OF VERSATILITY?!?!!?!? You don't know any one of these dogs. You are going on the assumption that a field trial dog is a renegade


Never mentioned cooperation or versatility....sure there are dogs that can do the work...you don't know which ones for sure, but there is lots of anecdotal evidence.
I posted the pics to show you how the FT game is controlling the breed. You respond by talking to me about eye and nose color??? Laughing Laughing Laughing Good word...buy a Pointer Rhonda...that's what you obviously want.
you're 2cm and 5 lbs away from the middle of the Pointer world...good grief, just do it.

Bout time you changed the name of the AKC dogs to American Wirehaired Pointer....you just spent the last two days making it clear that you despise the original breed, and have made vast improvements. Would be the ethical thing to do...what do you say? The sporting world knows...why pretend anymore?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index -> Nationals All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 5 of 8

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group