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2009 National Catalog
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Rhonda
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim West again....OK Jonnie, you are getting a little too upset here...let me put this in words that you can understand. Are you with me so far?

Quote:
its not just the VDD its the many NAVHDA folks that you don't even know about.


VDD=2%, I would guess. NAVHDA tested GWP=3% or so, I would guess. However, NAVHDA is a training organization, not a breed organization. All of their testing and training is done on upland birds and waterfowl. Not fur.

Quote:
I'll let the hardcore chukar, prarie chicken, and sharptail guys know!!!


I've seen more sharptail and prairie chicken in the last 10 years than you have seen in books. I have trained on these birds every summer.


Quote:
Laccoca's dog came out of that trash


Are we name dropping? (You spelled it wrong.) Tom is a customer of mine. I am well aware of his dogs.


Quote:
Matters everywhere....but many of these coats are not working coats....you know it and we all know it. Too many folks are lying to themselves. Tell you what, have these dogs judged soaking wet....like NAVHDA does....your own standard says its the "distinguishing characteristic" of the breed.


Again, you have not had your hands on the dogs in question, so you cannot make an opinion on those coats. Are you stilll with me?

Quote:
the breed is not a "bird dog", its a versatile breed....you know, birds, ducks, geese, hare, rabbits......


Last I knew ducks and geese are birds. They are feathered and they fly. When you put hare and rabbits in here, it really distracts me. The only thing that I can envision is a little girl waiting for her daddy and dog to come home, the dog jumps out of the vehicle, kills the family cat and brings it to the crying little girl.

This is America. We use our GWP's for upland bird hunting for the most part. I don't want to be bird hunting and have my dog distracted for a coon, hare, cow, coyote, badger or anything else when I am out hunting birds.

As long as the VDD keeps killing cats for sharpness testing, you will remain a small group. I have no respect for the VDD or anyone associated with it. Can you hear me now?

Jonnie, I also found out that you aren't telling anyone that you used to be one of the top show guys in the US. You used to breed to all of the dogs that you are complaining about. What happened? You couldn't compete anymore and chose to get out? Boy, I'm having fun now. Thank God for snowy/rainy days. I get to sit here and talk to Jonnie.

Jimmy West
We can only be what we give ourselves the power to be.
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Last I knew ducks and geese are birds.

Actually Jim, they are Waterfowl.
A different ballgame. Most GWPs never fetch one.
Your/Their emphasis is field, not water, and not Forest (as in fur)

The rest of us ugly 'renegades' equate fur with blood tracking.
My dog is Whoa'd off all game, cats included.
But if we come across a feral in the field, Ive no problem having dog dispatch it. Nor do the property owners I know that give me permission to hunt.

Quote:
As long as the VDD keeps killing cats for sharpness testing, you will remain a small group. I have no respect for the VDD or anyone associated with it. Can you hear me now?

A cheap shot, and misinformed.
This is just part of how a hardness test is done, in the field, on ferals or Raccons, not pets.
It is part of what made the breed, what it is, a no nonsense, hardy breed that will sooner die than give up on game.


Quote:
The end goal of any GWP breeder, field or show, is to have a good looking bird dog. This is why the split is minimal....everyone's end goal is the same!!

You said it and defined your goals. Bird Dog.
Newsflash..the DD/GWP is and should be considered a Versatile Dog. First and Foremost.


One last thing...I can easily spot a Very Good Wire Coat. Many others can.
You can see the VDD Stud page. Its obvious the dogs with 11-12 coats.
Wash and Wear. Perfect coverage. One can easily view from a photo and ascertain if its a good coat or not. Heres an example
http://www.vdd-gna.org/studdogs/wildgarten_clou.htm


Quote:
In America, we have strived to breed away from the houndy trashy sharpness/aggression.

The Sharpness/Aggression transcends itself into a no nonsense dog, that will withstand pain and adversity to make a retrieve, overcome the elements, or refuse to give up on a cripple, or if necessary battle a gut shot deer, if need be. Seen it done a time or 2.
Weaker and softer dogs cur and give up..seen that a time or 2 as well.

Quote:
We are using these dogs for bird dogs and want a higher head to maximize the use of the scent cone.

Part of what makes A true Versatile such an excellent game finder IS its ability to work ground/tracking scent. I hunt my dogs with setters and Brits.
On phez, a Real Versatile dog outshines others by working ground scent with combo low and high head, and proper use of wind.


Quote:
This is America. We use our GWP's for upland bird hunting for the most part. I don't want to be bird hunting and have my dog distracted for a coon, hare, cow, coyote, badger or anything else when I am out hunting birds.

I do more waterfowl now, here in AmeriKa.
Bird numbers are way Down, Waterfowl numbers are way Up. With right dog, easy transition.
Also works on cripple deer. I charge $50 to come out and $75 if we find it.
Bowhunters love us.

A dog working in a field isnt too bothered with critters to be a problem.
Ive seen setters, Pointer, Britts and others all Quilled by Porkies.
DDs have no corner on tangling with critters. WHOA and in sight helps alot.

Quote:

you will remain a small group

Last I checked, the club was growing..and too quickly, too large. Hunters are gravitating to the breed and the club from all over.

I think the Bernanke, Geitner, Obama Printing Press is having an effect everywhere but the club remains vibrant, despite the Gutenberg Economic model currently being employed.

Quote:
the dog jumps out of the vehicle, kills the family cat and brings it to the crying little girl.

Never heard of a story like this, but its plausible. Sh*t happens.
People should not allow their animals to roam. This includes cats, which turn feral and become terrible nuisance animals and destructive machines on game and nesting birds. Ive no love loss for feral felines.
My little girl will know that wild cats= Bad and indoor cats =good.
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite a Contrast in Photos from the GWP breed at US Nationals
http://www.wildwestkennels.us/Clickable%20Pics/national%20winners.htm


From the German Counterpart Breed
http://www.kimmax.co.uk/photos/album/72157602495380614/Hegewald-2007.html

Interestingly enough, this link from Kimmax, who breeds and tests German DDs, says this:
Quote:
To date we have 16 titled dogs including 5 Full Champions (show and field), 7 UK Show Champions and 4 Overseas Champions. We have won Best of Breed at Crufts 3 times.



US contingent of German DDs at the higher levels

http://www.vdd-gna.org/photogallery_armb04.php

http://www.vommoorehaus.com/armbruster.htm
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Jon
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy, (since you seem to prefer the diminutive)

I was addressing glorifying made and teased coats, rewarding those with "coiffing skills", chemicals, and the ability to sculpt an outline. If you feel that these dogs embody the standard...we have different opinions...no problem.

Heh...you guys are happy...but don't be surprised if folks see that there are two different breeds out there.
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how could we possibly forget???????????????????????????????????????????
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Rhonda
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
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Location: SW Iowa

PostPosted: 11/17/09, 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, whiskerdog...this is Jim West again.

Last I knew they are birds, not just waterfowl, but a migrating bird. All of our GWP's have retrieved plenty of waterfowl. Geese in the spring and ducks in the fall. Our dogs retrieve ducks and geese just fine.

Quote:
The rest of us ugly 'renegades' equate fur with blood tracking.
My dog is Whoa'd off all game, cats included.
But if we come across a feral in the field, Ive no problem having dog dispatch it. Nor do the property owners I know that give me permission to hunt.


A cat is a cat and a dog can't distinguish between a house cat or a feral cat. How do those cats taste? I'm sure if you are a true sportsman, you are eating what you harvest.

Quote:
A cheap shot, and misinformed.
This is just part of how a hardness test is done, in the field, on ferals or Raccons, not pets.
It is part of what made the breed, what it is, a no nonsense, hardy breed that will sooner die than give up on game.


Not misinformed. Read it on the VDD site.


Quote:
Part of what makes A true Versatile such an excellent game finder IS its ability to work ground/tracking scent. I hunt my dogs with setters and Brits.
On phez, a Real Versatile dog outshines others by working ground scent with combo low and high head, and proper use of wind.


Disagree with this, too. A higher headed dog is going to find way more birds than a low headed dog. The longer a dog's head/nose is in the scent cone, the more birds it is going to find. Look at the steam coming off of the power plant, it starts out small and spreads much wider the further away it gets. This is similar to a bird's scent cone. A dog can be exhaling and when he inhales he will still be in the scent cone. Lower headed dogs is more likely to bump birds out of the range of the hunter because it doesn't know where the bird is located.

Quote:
Also works on cripple deer. I charge $50 to come out and $75 if we find it.
Bowhunters love us.


Don't try this in my state, or any of it's neighboring states or you can go to jail and lose your hunting privleges for up to 5 years.

Quote:
Never heard of a story like this, but its plausible. Sh*t happens.
People should not allow their animals to roam. This includes cats, which turn feral and become terrible nuisance animals and destructive machines on game and nesting birds. Ive no love loss for feral felines.
My little girl will know that wild cats= Bad and indoor cats =good.



This is sad to hear. Sh*t happens. So, if the neighbor's pomeranian gets loose and gets in your yard and killed by your dog that has been bred for sharpness/aggression....so you tell the neighbor, Sh*t happens? If this stuff goes on, neighborhoods will start looking at the GWP's like pitbulls. And we know that there are a lot of good pitbulls out there.

Jim West
We can only be what we give ourselves the power to be.
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Rhonda
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quite a Contrast in Photos from the GWP breed at US Nationals
http://www.wildwestkennels.us/Clickable%20Pics/national%20winners.htm


Hey, the dog that won this stake is the same dog that won the 2009 National Field Championship....isn't she good looking? Actually, she is a little bit ugly, but she doesn't know it.

And how about that lady holding the dog? Isn't she beautiful? It doesn't look like she's aged in 4 years.

All those dogs are fine representations of the American Kennel Club dogs. I bet they can take the heat or the cold and hunt all day long the way they are built. Now that is what I'm looking for in a dog!!

I don't know what the quote on champions have to do with anything. I am not one to brag, and I am not about to start, but those who know me know what I have done. (And my website hasn't been updated for almost 3 years.)

Jim West
We can only be what we give ourselves the power to be.

Jim West
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Jon
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Disagree with this, too. A higher headed dog is going to find way more birds than a low headed dog. The longer a dog's head/nose is in the scent cone, the more birds it is going to find. Look at the steam coming off of the power plant, it starts out small and spreads much wider the further away it gets. This is similar to a bird's scent cone. A dog can be exhaling and when he inhales he will still be in the scent cone. Lower headed dogs is more likely to bump birds out of the range of the hunter because it doesn't know where the bird is located.


Jimmy,
What do pheasant do 90% of the time when they run in the CRP? They hook downwind...there goes your "plume". Dogs that aren't willing to put their heads down aren't complete hunting dogs. Your dogs do it too...I know they do. I'll post a pic of a slovenly euro trash dog so you can revel. High headed dogs do great when the birds sit still. Just won $2100 last weekend over longtails at a friendly fundraiser trial last weekend...because the dog worked running pheasant as well as the quail.



We're just pi$%ing upwind here. I respect all of you in this discussion...what I don't respect is that you will convince yourselves that these "fluffy teased poofs" have anything to do with hunting. Over a drink, you would gladly agree with me. Too bad you're in a club where you can't speak your mind for fear of disrupting the "money" that funds your field trials.

BTW, what is the average age of the participants in the National FT? Considering that 95% of the breed isn't there (what did you draw...10 braces for the Am and the Nat?), what are your plans? Considering that 95% of the breed as well as the rest of the wire coated world couldn't care less what you guys do in the middle of hunting season, what is your plan for the future??
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Our dogs retrieve ducks and geese just fine.

Any mutt can fetch a duck in a pond.
Sitting patiently and quietly, breaking ice, taking cold, marking well with some handling, and ability to recover cripples is a real duck dog.



Quote:
A cat is a cat and a dog can't distinguish between a house cat or a feral cat. How do those cats taste? I'm sure if you are a true sportsman, you are eating what you harvest.

I dont allow my dog in the homes of those that own indoor cats.
So its never an issue.
Ferals get dispatched quickly, and its encouraged by landowners, that hunt.
Maybe your local chinese restaurant has a recipe, but I dont eat vermin.


Quote:
A higher headed dog is going to find way more birds than a low headed dog

Spoken like a true trialer.
I hunted with a Trial setter last week, over 3 hours. My dog had 8 finds to his 2 in 3 hours.
Also recovered a Crip the setter lost and couldnt recover, tracking a nice ways out, bird was otherwise lost and gone.
In thick CRP cover, on running birds, youre talking nonsense about the nose for most of my midwestern hunting. Ive seen the difference. Stick to horseback trials, Jimmy boy


Quote:
Don't try this in my state, or any of it's neighboring states or you can go to jail and lose your hunting privleges for up to 5 years.

More states are welcoming deer recovery dogs for hunting and amending their state laws..Its legal in NY, ME, OK, TX, OH, MI, IL, IN, Missouri, VT, LA, Nebraska, NM, AR, AL, and throughout Most of the South.


Quote:

Read it on the VDD site.

Where? Show me....I doubt youre an expert reading anything off the VDD site.
Maybe a cyber expert, with an abundant supply of nonsense.



Quote:
So, if the neighbor's pomeranian gets loose and gets in your yard and killed by your dog that has been bred for sharpness/aggression....so you tell the neighbor, Sh*t happens?

Yes, Its the Law.. I dont make them, I live by them. Confine your pets.
But in my case, the neighbors Maltese gets loose, comes over, chases my DD, barks at her, and then gets sent home, usually without a scratch, sometimes with a low growl when my dog has had enough.



Quote:
Hey, the dog that won this stake is the same dog that won the 2009 National Field Championship....isn't she good looking? Actually, she is a little bit ugly, but she doesn't know it.

None of those dogs are a good example of the breed, Sorry


Quote:
And how about that lady holding the dog? Isn't she beautiful? It doesn't look like she's aged in 4 years.

Yes, very lovely indeed.
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Tony
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my limited wild bird hunting experience Wink , it has been my observation that the wind direction has more to do with mishandled running birds than whether the dogs were working it with a high or low head. Most of my dogs work healthy birds better with a high head and cripples with a low head.
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Most of my dogs work healthy birds better with a high head and cripples with a low head.


Most Phez and Grouse run, Tony
What does your dog do then?

I imagine it begins to track until it pins them. Thats what mine does
I bet yours work in a similar fashion
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Tony
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They track them with a high head. The grouse that I hunt don't do much running.
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure where youre at Jim, but with Special Permission to track on lead, Dogs can and have been used to recover deer in Iowa.
See below link

http://www.born-to-track.com/dogs/stories/daryl-big-buck.htm



Also legal in MD, NC, SC, MS, GA, and many more states I failed to mention
Also being considered in MN.
http://www.sportsmansblog.com/2009/02/minnesota-considers-allowing-dogs-to-recover-shot-big-game.html
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They track them with a high head.


How can you tell your dog is even tracking?

Scent conditions vary, but 8/10 times, when my dog smells a phez moving fast, she is like a vaccum cleaner.
My non DD Friends call her the Hoover dog. Same goes on a crip.
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Tony
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whiskerdog1 wrote:

How can you tell your dog is even tracking?


When you have walked as many miles and killed as many birds as I have, hopefully you will be able to read your dog well enough to tell when she is tracking. Rolling Eyes
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