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2009 National Catalog
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Jon
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the breed’s most distinguishing characteristics are its weather resistant, wire-like coat and its facial furnishings.


I hope the performance dogs were more indicative of the standard and exhibited the "distinguishing characteristic" of the breed better than most of these pictures do. Any judge worth his/her salt should have put these overgroomed, back-brushed, powdered and cholesteroled 'beauties" to the back of the line.

I agree with Tony, where were these "powder" puffs when the guns were pulled out....you folks honestly still think there isn't a split in this breed?
Won't change....

Do you back rush and powder before or after hunting!!!
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Tony
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were there any dogs that were entered in both the dog show and the field trial.

If so, were there any dogs that placed in both the dog show and field trial?
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Rhonda
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is Jim West...still on Rhonda's name!!

Jon, the pictures of the performance dogs would probably make you complain too. There is a variety there, too....wooly to slick, short to tall, fine boned to big boned. You are looking at pictures....have you paid attention to the WINNERS of the events? (Not just the dogs that were entered.)

Why is that people complain about getting beat?

My field dogs probably run too big for what you are looking for, too. But I am looking for power, animation and bird dog. We don't use them for fur.

My ultimate goal is to get a dog that will excel at both ends of the spectrum.

I agree, there is a split in the breed between the field and the show, BUT a breeder's ultimate goal it to breed for the standard. There are no perfect dogs and sometimes we get less than desirable coats or pigment or any other number of things in the quest for the better dog. The split also doesn't have anything to do with a split in the Nationals....the venue needs to be available to showcase the breed AS A WHOLE!!

The field people will need to breed some show dogs somewhere down the line, and vice-versa.

Tony and I are friends and I know Tony very well. I also know Tony's dogs and what he is looking for in his dogs. He is a very responsible breeder and has been very tough in his evaluations of his individual dogs. He is a proponent of spaying and neutering.

Jim West
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Rhonda
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony....

Louie would be the first to come to mind....he won his class and made the final cut for Best of Breed and was RU in the NAFC.

The pup that I got third with in the puppy also placed at the show.

There were several others that were entered in both, but I don't know about placements in both....I can take a look at the catalog. Maybe Braddock's dog? Mary Hanson's dog?

Rhonda
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Tony
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is an "Award of Merit"?

http://www.gwpca2009national.com/

There a lot of dog show pictures on this page. Which dog is the equivalent of the NFC, NAFC, Derby Classic, and Puppy Classic winners? I couldn't find Louie's picture in any of the dog show pictures, but I did like his performance in the trial.
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Jon
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I agree, there is a split in the breed between the field and the show


Hi Jim,
Look...I know I'm being a pain...but the breed would be a lot better off if y'all got judges that would dismiss these "sheep" that are being paraded around the ring. Why have a standard folks...or pretend that these are working dogs. You do know that none of these dogs with feathers and curls would last 2 days in the grouse woods without being bloodied and ripped to shreds. I'm not saying all of them but too many of these show dogs are pretty pictures and not an example of a well equipped working dog. Its laughable to see these made dogs....good word, these winners are supposed to embody the standard!!!

I was not in favor of letting FT define the breed, but I'd sooner have that than "made dogs" of unqualified talent put the face on any breed.

Alright, I'll get out of this, sorry for the "brain fart"...its just frustrating to see all you folks marching down the same path year after year, praising, rewarding "made up" dogs. You do know that the other half of the breed departed long ago...right???

The LAB folks put the brakes on the 120 lb show slobs some years back...show some moxy and stop this adoration of made coats and perfectly groomed perception.

Yeah, I know...I'm going back where I belong....
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Rhonda
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony....

TONS of pictures!! Generally, only the winners of each class take pictures. I don't know if Bernee took a picture of Louie...but I'm guessing she didn't or it should have been on the website.

Award of Merit would be equivalent of a Judge's Award of Merit. Basically, the dog wasn't in the awards for the class, but was an exceptional specimen that the judge saw fit to recognize.

The show offers a lot more classes than the field. Best of Breed would be equivalent of NFC and NAFC.....there is no break down for handlers. (Which is why it can get so political!!) The Sweeps and Futurity (Winners of each sex and overall...I'll explain that in a minute.) would be equivalent to the puppy/derby/futurity. These are juveniles.

Initially, the girls and boys show separately. They are broken down in to classes...6-9 mo, 9-12 mo, 12-18 mo, Open, Bred by Exhibitor and American bred. (Specialties may offer Field dog, stud dog, brood bitch and veteran's classes.) The winner of each of these classes goes back in the ring for the points. The Winner is awarded the points. There is a Reserve Winner, too. (In case there is an issue with the winner.) So, Winners dog and Winners bitch get points towards their CH. That means that there are a lot of blue 1st place ribbons handed out over the course of the day, but it is the purple and gold, blue and white and red and white ones that "count".

THEN, the Winners go in against anything that has entered for Best of Breed competition. (These are dogs that are already CH and are working on dogs defeated/group placements/best in show.) That is where Best of Breed will be chosen and Best of Opposite Sex. Best of Winners is chosen, too.

This is the stripped down, quick layman's version of the show....hopefully it helps. Best of Opposite and Best of Winners would be like overall 2nd and 3rd place in the NFC. Sort of.

Does any of this make sense to you?

Better get back to work for awhile!! Rolling Eyes

Rhonda
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just off the top of my head....
Liz Dixon showed her puppy BACKWOODS DK FYRST that placed in the Derby and also won the Bred by dog class at the National Specialty.

Rhonda showed her puppy BRILLOWS WILD WEST GERONIMO and took 3rd in the 9-12 dog class and ran in the Derby.


Cindy Heiller showed her WEIDENHUGEL HOUSTON V JOEY in the Bred by class at the National Specialty and took 3rd, and he ran in the Futurity

Also Cindy showed WEIDENHUGEL HOPE V JOEY JH in the 12-18 bitches and ran her in the futurity

I showed Ariel's Justa One Hot Mama in the Open Bitch class and she took 4th and she ran in both the Championships

I showed Louie, and he made the final cut for BOB. Didn't win, but to make the cut was very nice. And he did pretty good at the trial. I didn't get a picture taken, didn't have time to do it. Was busy getting ready to run the All Star, clean up the ring area, get hospitality ready, give a Chairmans report........ never found the time to get my own dogs win photo taken.

We showed CH HEY WIRE N CEDRBRK JUST A ‘PON A TIME JH as a special who placed last year in the field futurity

The Darby's showed several dogs that also ran in the field. John Williams showed his 3 Duals in the All Star. The dog that won this years NAFC was shown in the All Star, the dog that won the All Star last year was run in both Championships. Marly, who won the NFC previously (and dang near won it this year) was shown in the All Star. I'm sure I'm leaving out a couple of dogs. Did they all win? No.... but they were worthy of being there. Did every dog worthy of winning in one of the field events win? No, but they were worthy of being there.

I don't have my catalog at hand, so am going off memory.

If you look through who showed, and who placed at the show, you will see a whole bunch of dogs who were sired by, or whose dams are FC's, DC, National Champions and Master Hunters. Then, if you will take the time and do a little research, look at who is behind some of the dogs that were shown, and did well, and look behind who did well at the trial..... That's the point, it's not who wins, but who is producing what!

None of us will ever agree on who wins the show, or in the field. But we go to look at what is producing what, or I would hope that is why we are going. Let's be honest, there are a whole bunch of people in our breed who seem to think the Dual Champion is important. These people take their dogs to dog shows and finish them. They may not show them at the Nationals... and that's understandable. It's both a time factor, and a conditioning factor. Some don't give a darn, but they sure seem to use those lines in their breeding programs.

Let's face it, we will never get the hard core trialers to show their dogs, whether they are worthy of being shown or not. And we will never get the hard core show people to bring their dogs to the trials, whether they are worthy or not. But, it would behoove us all to look a bit deeper, to watch breedings and families of dogs who are consistently producing.

The dog that won BOB may not be your cup of tea, however, over groomed he is not. There were many, many dogs shown that had wonderful coats, however, a great coat alone does not a great dog make! So, a poorly coated dog that is picked by the judge does not go unnoticed by those sitting ringside. Not everyone drinks the cool aide!

I'm still hoping those who would like to see the events split tell us the benefits to the breed, and to the GWPCA.

I don't care what the English folks think, no more than they care what we think. If you are not a part of this organization, then you have no room to discuss what we do. Should you like to join, and be a part of it, we would love to have you.

Ok... rant over! I would suggest all that are unhappy with how things went this year, contact next years Field Chair, Gary Wickwire and discuss it with him. Hopefully it will all go as you wish.
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 6:13 pm    Post subject: You know...... Reply with quote

after my long rant... the question could be asked....
how many dog that were entered in the field events did well at the field events?

And why weren't more entered?
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Rhonda
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim West here again....I'm starting to get a complex because I can't get my own identity. What's up with that?

Anyways....

I want to clarify some of the things that I said earlier. I do believe that there is a split in the breed, but it is minimal when compared to many of the other AKC Sporting group breeds. Wirehairs have the highest percentage of Dual Champions in the AKC.


This year's National Specialty Best of Breed (BOB), Best of Winners (BOW) and Best of Opposite Sex (BOS) are all good representatives of the breed. I would have no problem breeding to or owning a pup from any of these dogs, as long as I knew that they were bird dogs....which I am sure they are.

Jon, you are judging these coats by looking at a bunch of pictures. Just because a dog has longer furnishings doesn't mean that it has an improper coat. It may be a tad longer, but it can still be harsh. Furnishings are the first thing that gets hunted off of my dogs, but they grow back. Until you have had your hands on the coats and can have an educated opinion of the texture, length of the outer coat and a feel of the amount of undercoat, you really can't say too much about the protective capacity.

As for the VDD, the other half that you claim has already left, it is not a true half. It is a very small percentage of the dogs owned in the US...less than 5% I would guess. In America, we have strived to breed away from the houndy trashy sharpness/aggression. We are using these dogs for bird dogs and want a higher head to maximize the use of the scent cone. If I wanted to hunt fur, I would get a Plott, Red Bone, Beagle or Jagd Terrier (something bred for fur and/or tracking.)

I do prefer a high tail. Any hard core trialer will tell you that looks DO count. A dog has got to look classy and correct when on an intense point. Thus, function still needs form!! To look good is a part of the whole picture. It is a part of winning. (In the field or show ring!)

The end goal of any GWP breeder, field or show, is to have a good looking bird dog. This is why the split is minimal....everyone's end goal is the same!!

(And, just to let you know, I am known as a GSP trainer. Rhonda got me involved in this breed about 12 years ago. I only run a few, but I love them! I have seen how splits have ruined other breeds....GSP included...and don't feel that it is in the best interest of the GWP. If we split, we'll all be running slicks that look like pointers, just like the GSP's that I compete!)

Jim West
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Tony
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhonda,

Does anyone go home from a dog show without a ribbon? With all of the classes, it seems that the competition would be spread pretty thin. How many classes can one dog be entered in?
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Rhonda
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony...

You smartarse!! Laughing

No, not EVERYONE goes home with a ribbon. Just about though! Wink
Besides, the ribbons don't mean much in my book. I want the points!! (And others want the defeats and the chance to go to Group or beyond.) I guess it's like running an 8 dog puppy stake...half of them get ribbons!

They split up the sexes for obvious reasons (bitches in season, for example). But they are broke down in to the other classes to simplify things and make it easier for the judge (and sometimes the handlers, too!!). That way a judge isn't looking at a large 6 mo old pup and wondering why it is lacking things compared to a mature dog. It really does make sense. It would be tough to walk in to a ring of 15-30 wirehairs at all different stages of development.

It really doesn't spread the competition thin...it pits the best of each group against each other. I left out a lot of the finer details..just wanted you to have the big picture. Are thinking about buying a sequined vest and showing Digger? Razz

Each dog can only be entered in one class. (With the exception of Brood Bitch and Stud Dog classes. These are special classes that are the dog/bitch and 3 or more get from a litter. It is not for points or BOB competition and is only offered at some specialty shows.)

Let me know what else I can help you with!

Rhonda
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Tony
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhonda wrote:
Are thinking about buying a sequined vest and showing Digger? Razz


Vern and I are going to try and qualify our dogs for the All Star. Since our breed club puts so much more emphasis on the dog show than the field trial; I just want to gain as much knowledge as I can.
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Rhonda
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PostPosted: 11/16/09, 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony;

I was there with Ansel and I would hate to see you and Vern so "out of your element" so maybe I'll try to qualify Miss Kitty, too. (I hear that the food is pretty good, too! But it's a cash bar...that sucks.)

Seriously though, I think what you are seeing as more emphasis on the show is just a larger number of people involved on that end that all take the time to work together and get the extra stuff done that makes it seem as though that is where the emphasis is. (Keep in mind that they also have a motel, banquet rooms, catering, etc....that makes it easier than running a kerosene heater and a generator under a tent, too. BUT, we are outdoorsmen/women and would rather be hanging out in the fresh air in a more casual atmosphere anyways!)

You know that I am a die hard field person and it is our main focus, but we have to give credit where credit is due. The show people work hard to put on a spectacular event and they don't ask for help from the "field people". It's time we step up to the plate and take charge for a better trial.

I have already spoken with Gary and am going to be taking some pro-active steps to get things a bit more organized. I have volunteered to take care of the hospitality one night. Do you want to take a night, too? Do you want to collect donations for the trial grounds to raffle during hospitality one night (and donations can be anything...one horse bit, lead rope, a collar, a roll of vet wrap, a bag of horse treats, etc.)? Do you have any specific ideas that you would like to see come to fruition? Do you know a sign maker? a brewer?

Throw out some ideas and let's get the ball rolling!!

Rhonda

PS: I think you would wear the sequins well, but you would have to put highlights in your hair!! Laughing
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Jon
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PostPosted: 11/17/09, 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As for the VDD, the other half that you claim has already left, it is not a true half. It is a very small percentage of the dogs owned in the US...less than 5% I would guess.


Jim, its not just the VDD its the many NAVHDA folks that you don't even know about.

Quote:
In America, we have strived to breed away from the houndy trashy sharpness/aggression. We are using these dogs for bird dogs and want a higher head to maximize the use of the scent cone. If I wanted to hunt fur, I would get a Plott, Red Bone, Beagle or Jagd Terrier (something bred for fur and/or tracking.)


I'll let the hardcore chukar, prarie chicken, and sharptail guys know!!! Laccoca's dog came out of that trash (100% pig dog), as did Lutz zur Cadenburg (a German throw away from a big game kennel), the Schnellberg dogs, etc, etc, etc.... WOW!!! do you need to do a little homework....talk about the cool aid. Dixon just bred to some 100% Euro trash (all German pedigree from Denmark). And I'm sure Aloysia will be glad to hear your opinion of her trashy houndy imports. The dog should be able to do ALL the above....you see it as a specilist...a bird dog.

Quote:
I do prefer a high tail. Any hard core trialer will tell you that looks DO count. A dog has got to look classy and correct when on an intense point. Thus, function still needs form!! To look good is a part of the whole picture. It is a part of winning. (In the field or showing!)


Matters everywhere....but many of these coats are not working coats....you know it and we all know it. Too many folks are lying to themselves. Tell you what, have these dogs judged soaking wet....like NAVHDA does....your own standard says its the "distinguishing characteristic" of the breed.
I remember "Snow Owl", "Banner", etc....things haven't changed much.

Quote:
The end goal of any GWP breeder, field or show, is to have a good looking bird dog. This is why the split is minimal....everyone's end goal is the same!!


OH, bunk....look back over the past ten years and see how many of the top winners went on to a DC, VC, MH.....please. and BTW, the breed is not a "bird dog", its a versatile breed....you know, birds, ducks, geese, hare, rabbits......

Quote:
after my long rant... the question could be asked....
how many dog that were entered in the field events did well at the field events?

And why weren't more entered?


What percentage of owners go to dog shows??? What % participate in field trials??? That's 90% of your activity time at your Nationals...and right in the middle of bird season. Should be obvious....

Stop rewarding this spraying and "poofing" .... start rewarding coats that could stand up to a week in the grousewoods or in the brush. Running dogs in the ring and 30 minutes in the shortgrass proves little. It should be embarrassing to see forlegs, chest, stifle, hocks all teased and sprayed....I'm having a hard time believing you guys would defend this nonsense. Take away all that "sculpting" and you might see more performance dogs in the ring....can't imagine those guys would spend 5 minutes on that nonsense. Take those show dogs out in the cover for an hour and the owners will understand real fast why all that soft hair is a detriment. Problem is too many of thse folks don't hunt.

aaaahhhhh....why do I bother....you guys would rather win and that's what its about. Actually, it just makes it clearer to anyone that there is a real difference between the two breeds and I'm grateful for that.
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