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AmmoMike
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PostPosted: 06/18/03, 3:14 pm    Post subject: barf Reply with quote

Can someone point me in the right direction for a how to on Barf? I am a little lost with it all, thought I was feeding one of the best foods, when I was feeding IAMs now I am reluctant to believe that. I would like to have all this BARF stuff in order for when my new pup gets here. I am stationed in wichita falls TX if there is any info where I can get it around here that would be great also Very Happy

Thanks
Mike
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Illona
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PostPosted: 06/20/03, 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Mike,

Am I too late? I've not checked this forum in weeks, and was considering starting my own thread on raw feeding.

I just started my 18-mo-old GWP rescue girl on raw-meat and bones. We're 3 weeks in and having a blast. I can direct you to a couple books, as well as a couple awesome Yahoo groups. I've gone through almost a dozen different internet groups, and there are a couple really excellent ones. I've learned a ton in 3 weeks.

It's an AWESOME diet. You'll love it! More to the point, your GWP will!!

I can certainly get you started. Let me know if you still need help. I'm at: illona@rogers.com if you'd rather go private.

Illona
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trackindog
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PostPosted: 06/21/03, 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Illona - thanks for your reply on the free feed question I had and I think this is great that we have a thread regarding the raw diet. I hope we can get lots of honest input.

I have gone back and forth for about a year now trying to decide whether this is the way to go. A lot of westie people believe it's the very best way to feed a dog, especially ones prone to allergies as westies can be. None of mine are allergic at this time but the diet can also be a preventative.

My concern has always been two fold. One, am I feeding them the correct nutrients. And two, and I realize this is MY problem, I am concerned about the messiness of feeding this way. My concerns may be unfounded but I still have them.

I recently started giving my westies raw beef rib bones sans most of the meat and fat, just to see if they would eat them. I had hope at least it may help their teeth as I realize they are considered recreational bones and not actually food. They seem to enjoy them so I guess that's a start. But right now it is summer and they can eat them outdoors - there is no way I could feed these to them in the winter in the house so then what would they do?

I had also considered starting them all on a raw diet once the puppy came but am even more concerned about a puppy getting the proper nutrients.

It is quite a change but from the people I have talked to that feed their dogs this way they absolutely love it. I just need the nerve to get over my hang-ups.

I also have been offered tons of links and book suggestions. I will post them when we get back from vacation this week if anyone is interested.

Ann
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AmmoMike
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PostPosted: 06/21/03, 9:24 pm    Post subject: barf Reply with quote

Guys thanks for the reply... Never too late for great info. BUT, my wife did find a book of receipies that i am sure once I get I will be asking questions about the one to feed... And also will be willing to through out receipies to others out of it if they would like. should see the book soon and will be able to see what it is all about. thanks again guys!
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Illona
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PostPosted: 06/22/03, 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recipes? AmmoMike - you don't need no durn recipes! Wink Feeding raw is actually quite easy and very very fun. Okay, it's not as easy as scooping kibble out of a barrel, but it's way fun. Did I mention it's fun?!

I'm 3 weeks into feeding raw to my 18-mo-old girl, and she's doing terrific (in spite of having almost sliced the main pad off her left front foot last week, and still recovering with 13 stitches and loaded with antibiotics!!! but that's another story!)

I'm still awaiting the arrival of two books: one by Sue Johnson and Billinghurst's latest (least expensive) one. Still, I've gotten a good handle on the feeding by researching it on the internet and joining a couple raw-feeding groups through Yahoo.

Right now I'm feeding Matea (a lean 57 lbs of manic muscle) an average of 1 to 1 1/2 lbs of raw meat/bone a day. I started her on beef, so every day she's getting this, split into two feedings (a.m. and afternoon):
-a little over 1/2 lb of raw ground
-1 heaping tblsp of pureed veggies - dark greens
-tsp of Vit. C
-tsp. of seameal or kelp
-a tblsp of flax seed oil or a little salmon oil
-1/2 tsp of bone meal
-1/2 tsp of alfalfa powder
This is WAY more than most raw feeders give, but I'm a control freak and want to know what she's getting.
Then every second day she gets one egg, and on opposite days she gets 4 oz of chopped liver mixed with her 'meal'.

For her dinner she'll get her 'meaty bone'. Right now, since I started her on beef (and you want to stick to one kind of meat for the first couple weeks, then gradually offer new types every couple weeks until you figure what's good and what's not)...for dinner she's getting approx. 1/2 lb of very meaty beef neck bones. These are tough on a dog if they're not careful eaters, because the bones are thick. I tried a couple pieces of oxtail and that was the only thing that she threw up on. It was early the next a.m. (of course...when you're still sleeping!) that she threw up a little bile and a couple chunks of tail bone. everything else has been splendid.

A lot of people will start with chicken, since it's cheap and since the bones are more crunchable. I'm going to start Matea on chicken backs and necks as her dinner meal in the next week or so, see how she does on that, still giving her ground beef in the a.m., and after a couple weeks of that (and after I've run out of my prepared 'meals' in the freezer) I'll be switching the ground beef to ground chicken.

Most raw feeders - as I said - don't go to this extent. They feed only meaty bones. Me, I don't agree. I agree in playing it a little safe -- i.e. my dog gets half her food with no bone (except the ground chicken will have bone in, but ground up), and the other half with bones she has to chew. I may switch my attitude over the months, but right now I want the control. I want something to mix her supplements in. Other raw feeders argue that you don't need the supplements, but frankly, I think our domestic dogs, living in our polluted environment, eating our less-than-perfect meat, need all the help they can get.

GRRR.... I just spent 30 mins writing about how to feed raw, Ann, especially with your terriers, and the system deleted it!!! I'll start a new message.
This one's long enough.

Illona
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Illona
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PostPosted: 06/22/03, 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To follow up...
I wanted to mention that another reason I feed 1/2 raw and 1/2 meaty bone is because I don't care what raw feeders say, you're not going to convince me that feeding meaty bones is as safe as feeding non-bones. You run a risk feeding bones -- lacerations to esophagus, stomach lining, intestines, etc.; chipped teeth (Matea's already got a small chip in one from those big beef neck bones); broken teeth, etc. YES, wild dogs live this way, but do they live as long as domestic dogs? Also when a wild dog/wolf makes a kill, they don't always eat all the bones. They'll eat more meat than anything. You find a lot of raw feeders feeding primarily chicken backs, wings, legs, necks etc. If the dog had killed that bird in the wild, it may have consumed the entire bird, however, the ratio of food to bone is going to be different than just feeding backs.

I'm pretty comfortable with my 50/50 split, even though I might get flack from the extremists who feed their dogs whole rabbits, chickens, and baby goats -- fur, feathers and all!

Ann, you asked about messiness of feeding raw. Your concerns are NOT unfounded!! I live on brand-new stupid (and rented) beige carpeting!
This is another reason why I like feeding half raw and half meaty bone. The 'meal' I give Matea is given on a deep plate. Dead easy. Very clean.
The bone part of her diet is given on a 4' x 6' blanket. I have 2 of them and they are washed quite regularly. She knows she has to stay on them in orde to eat her bones. It's just more obedience training. Takes a little time maybe, but you can do it. I say, feed this way until they get a hang of it, and then give them the luxury of outdoors sometimes. But make sure you can keep them on the blanket first, because the first rainy day.... Shocked

Now here's a big warning for you feeding your two Westies... Be careful! Those darn terrierists can get down right snarly about their bones. You might have two darlings that have loved each other from day one, but look out. I've heard of a # of raw feeders encounter increased aggression probs with their dogs -- dog on dog, and dog on owner. This is a new way of eating; until your dogs realize this is the standard fare, those raw meaty bones you give them are going to be seen as HIGH value. I even had Matea give me a very brief growl over one of her first meaty bones. I laid into (with my voice and my hand over her muzzle) and she'll never do that again. I did, however, create in her a brief bone-phobia; she was nervous eating her bones after that, but in a couple days I had her over the hump and she's a perfectly polite bone eater now. It just takes a little work, a little thought, and some patience.

Your westies, however, might pose a problem to each other. You want to be really aware of any I-gonna-steal-your-bone eye-contact between them. In fact, what I'd suggest is separating them for their meals for the first few weeks while they learn how to chew and crush their bones properly. You do NOT need one of them giving the other an evil, bone-snatching eye! You do not need dogs gulping whole bones! Best to let them learn how to eat them, AND learn that the bones are the regular fare, not a one-day, high commodity. You really want to avoid any in-house fighting, because it could ruin some relationships. And just because your sweethearts have been good about sharing their kibble bowl, dont' for a SECOND imagine them sharing their raw food! No way!

When you talk about teeth-cleaning -- I imagine the best bones for this are cartilage-type bones. Knucle bones for beef, and chicken bones.

Ann, I think you have another message to me in response to one of mine about raw-feeding, correct? I'll go look for it. Might respond tomorrow. Right now I have to go change Matea's bandages and check her stitches. What a royal pain in the a** this is, having a cut up pad just in the middle of our agility!

Illona
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 06/24/03, 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought the Barf diet thing was just plain silly,.... until I tried it.
I had a bitch who just plain was unhealhty looking... poor coat, icky skin, thin.. And then I had my old boy who eats, but just never ever gained weight. After reading some Barfy posts (pun intended) I figured I might as well give it a shot.

After about 3 wks, the bitchs coat was 100% better, her skin cleared up and she put on weight. My old boy loved it and also gained weight.

The girl has gone to live with others, who have put her back on dog food, and she now looks like she did before the Barf diet. They just don't believe me about it I guess. The old boy... well, now and then he gets the raw chicken, but he also is holding his weight and looking good.

The biggest problem for me with the Barf diet, was the shopping. In my neck of the woods, chicken backs are not on many menues and they are tough to find. I get big leg bones from a butcher... big bones! The dogs love them, but be careful, they can become weapons. I have more than one hole in a wall from them.

And, I agree with the "aggression" when they are eating this stuff. Turns the little darlings into wild animals! It's messy, but for problem dogs, I think it is an idea,
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Anne
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PostPosted: 06/27/03, 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love the idea of a BARF string. I started in March and now can't imagine feeding any other way.

Here's an awesome BARF site.

http://www.auntjeni.com/

I have just put in an order for the Green Tripe. I've never fed it before and have heard mixed reviews. Some dogs love it, some would sooner starve. Anyone here have thoughts?

My other question to the group is, what supplements (if any) do you add to your raw diet?

On another note, if you are in Minnesota there is a yahoo group, Midwest BARF buyers where you can get your meat wholesale. It is much cheaper. It was on this bulliten board that I learned about it.

As far as responses to other thoughts...

I have no problem with possession aggression with the bones. Any human (including my friends 2 year old) can take the bones from him or pet him as he's enjoying them. The only time I've seen him growl was at a 10 week old Pug who had tried for about 5 minutes (including laying on his back under Riley chin, it was hilarious) to share the bone Riley gave one warning growl the pup backed off and that was the end of it.

As far as worries about nutrition, commercial dog food is heated to such a high temperature that they cook most of the nutrients out of it. If you're managing to feed yourself and your children a healthy balanced diet, you can certainly do it for your dogs. (No marketing geniuses telling your dog they should want only Capt'n Crunch and Mac and Cheese)

Remember we don't worry about getting every nutrient we need in every bite of food we eat; you don't need to do it for your dog either. The idea is balance over time, which is the natural way to eat anyway.

Can't wait to hear what you think on the supplements and the tripe.
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Illona
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PostPosted: 06/27/03, 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Anne,
I just realized we've got two Ann(e)'s on this raw thread?

I, too, can't imagine feeding any other way. When I take Matea's breakfast meal out of the freezer (the ground w/ veggies and supplements), it smells SO good! Our 6 yr old has asked if she can try some! Matea loves it. And last night she had her first meal of chicken back (since I've kept her to beef these first several weeks). She made short order of that, and not a problem.

Anne, the supplements I add are in my previous message. The only thing I've added to those is some Vit. E (400 whatevers) and acidophulus (because of the antibiotics she's been on. I squirt the Vit. E out of the capsule, and I even break the capsules of the acidophulus and mix the powder into the food (after I tasted the powder and assured myself that it's not bitter).

I think now that she'll be eating chicken backs and bones, I'll take out the bone meal from her ground meat. Her poos are quite hard (no straining) and turn white very quickly. So she's good. I don't think she needs the extra bonemeal.

I really do love feeding this way. It's not hard. It's not expensive. And it's not even that messy. Heck, I put out her bone blanket last night for her chicken-back dinner and she didn't even need it. She just worked that thing in her mouth the whole time.

Oh, and another trick... I've taken to removing a couple huge tablespoons out of her morning ground-meat meal, jamming them into an emptied marrow bone, and freezing it. That's her afternoon snack. She loves it!

She never seems hungry. In fact, the other day she semi-fasted herself. Ate nothing till early evening. I had her one-day's intake split over two. She was fine. In fact, she's actually gaining, and I'll have to cut her back a bit I think. Then again, she's not had ANY exercise in two weeks with this foot of hers.

We get the stitches out this afternoon, but it's still oozing. I'm not sure it's ready. And she's such a freak about wanting to lick it. I've had a bootie on it; once the bootie's on she totally ignores her foot. Without it though, she's almost frenzied about licking. I'm not sure how I'm going to get some air on this thing.

Illona
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Illona
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PostPosted: 06/27/03, 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Anne,

forgot to mention that I haven't experienced tripe. I hear it's downright nasty though. Especially the green tripe. Very smelly, apparently. I don't have a source for it. Still working at that. Good luck with it!

Illona
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Anne
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PostPosted: 06/27/03, 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Aunt Jeni's link has organic grass fed tripe if you're interested.
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Illona
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PostPosted: 06/27/03, 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Anne. I saw that, but I'm in Canada. I can look for a Cdn supplier, but from what I'm seeing it's a bit pricey. I'll see what I can find locally.

Illona
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cheerio
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PostPosted: 06/28/03, 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Canada, try Mountain Dog Food Inc. Their prices are very very reasonable. It is also very simple: 1/3 raw meat + 1/3 raw veggies + 1/3 raw fruit. If you want grain, you can add one cup of raw oat, dogs usually love it.
As far as Tripes are concerned, some of my dogs go nuts over it while others will not even touch it. But a word of caution: Tripes are very rich on Iron and can cause Diarrhea in some dogs or when given in excess.
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PostPosted: 07/02/03, 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been on vacation for a week and then picked up our new GWP baby, Gunner this past Sunday. I think we may be hooked on the breed now!

I've been catching up on all the posts and wanted to thank all for the advice on the BARF (or RMB) diet. I was aware of the Midwest BARF Buyers as a good friend of mine belongs and picks up her orders monthly. She and I have had some discussions on feeding this way as I've been considering it for a year now.

Right now Gunner is on Eukaneuba as that is what he was getting at the breeder and we happened to have a large bag of it at home from my son's dog he no longer has. My westies are on Solid Gold so now I have to decide whether to switch Gunner to the Solid Gold or start the BARF diet for all of them.

Lots of decisions! But for right now we are having a ball with him. He is 8 weeks full of energy and love!

Ann
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PostPosted: 07/02/03, 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ann, congratulation on your new pup. I wish you a long and happy road together.

Eukanuba is an excellent food. Although I still believe that BARF is a better choice, I do not think that it is a good idea to change the food before puppy reaches the age of 6 months. So you have plenty of time to think about what you want to do.
I will remind you however that no matter what food you may chose, when changing, you have to do it over a period of one week: 1/4 regular food and 3/4 Eukanuba for a few days; 1/2 and 1/2 for a few days, 3/4 new food and 1/4 Eukanuba for the final few days and finally 100% new food. A sudden change will give diarrhea.
Furthermore, it is now recommanded that large breed be put on adult food at 6 months in order to reduce the protein intake. This allows articulations and bones to continue forming slower, with less chance of dysplasia.
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