German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America

[Rollick]

OK, I'm almost embarrassed to be asking this question, but I reckon the only stupid question is the one left unasked, so here goes. What's the difference between a GWP and Draathar? I'm not looking for a long dialogue re personality, etc differences or which is better. I literally want to know the difference. My new Gun Dog Magazine translates Draathar as "true wirehair pointer," but does this mean the Draathar came first? Is comprised of different breeds than the GWP? You need to know I live in Maryland and seem to be the only one around these parts with a GWP ("What the heck kind of dog is THAT thing?!" is the question I most often get), so I have no-one local to talk to. The only other Wookie around here appears to be a Draathar, according to its owner, but then again, he had never heard of a GWP, so his information is suspect.
I must add, I was raised hunting over female GSPs and Weimeraners, but this male GWP is the most fun and most responsive animal I've ever worked with. Is it cuz he's male? (He sure is this momma's boy.) Whatever, I'm a convert. I may always have a GSP for nostalgia's sake, but the GWP is my first choice from now on. Unless I just got lucky with this one! Too bad they are so impossible to find around here...
Many thanks in advance for solving my Draathar/GWP conundrum.
Cheers, Rollick

[Grant Johnson]

Aren't they one and the same?
I have a business associate in Germany and he told me that "draat har" actually means "wire hair", and that GWP is simply the English name for the same breed.

[cheerio]

Yes, it is the same thing exactly. Draathar is the original German name, German Wirehair pointer is the English name, just as it is the pointer Allemand a poil dur en France.
The one not to be confused about, and it is nowadays sometimes difficil, is the Draathar (WGP) and the Kurthal (German Pointing Griffon).

[Rollick]

Well, now, youse guys are merely confirming what I'd always already thought, so then the difference is, basically, where the dog is registered? Well, that's probably the wrong term, but you get my gist. But somehow I keep thinking the Draathar people wuldn't agree...But maybe I'm wrong there too. Hmmm...

[Jon P]

Rollick,

If you were to analyze the genetic code of the DD and the GWP, the difference (if any) would be insignificant. However, a DD can only be called a DD if it has been bred and registered under the breeding and registry guidelines and requirements of the VDD (Verein Deutsch Drahthaar) the parent club of the breed. The VDD steadfastly maintains the DD as the foothunters versatile working dog and requires dogs to meet breeding and testing standards. The VDD does not permit or encourage specialization, ie - field trial dogs, show dogs, agility dogs, etc. Its one focus is the versatile hunting dog. A DD is a DD not just because of parentage but because it is from generations of dogs that have met the performance and evaluation standards of the parent club for decades.

The GWP is the Americanized version of the original foundation breed. For the most, the GWP has been adapted to meet the needs or hobbies of their respective owners. Only a small % of GWP owners are commited to the versatile dog. Although there are excellent field dogs within the GWP ranks, the majority remain unproven as versatile dogs, ie retrieving, tracking, water work, etc. The GWP is prized because he is a productive hunting dog that is often more cooperative and easier to get along with than many traditional field specialists.

The differences are not in the names as much as in the directions in which the respective groups are leading the DD and GWP. Whereas the DD and its organization remain committed to the breed as a versatile gun dog, the GWP is being led in many different directions which has adversely affected the available genepool of performance dogs. Field trialing is considered to be the most important performance venue along with bench shows. The GWP for the most part is going in a different direction from the DD. The breeding of GWPs is not grounded in versatile testing and performance except for a few NAVHDA oriented enthusiasts.

If asked to recommend a field dog, I would recommend a GWP gladly. If asked to recommend an all purpose versatile dog, I would have to recommend that a buyer look first to any number of DD breeders.

Interesting to note is that the name Deutsch Drahthaar does not indicate that the dog is a pointer. The GWP is considered to be a pointer first and is generally used only for pointing. The Germans consider the breed to be a versatile dog (Gebrauchshund) and expect (require!!) it to do much more of which pointing is only a part.
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Jon P

[Rollick]

Jon P: thanks for your articulate and informative response; it was as I'd suspected, but was unable to confirm. You should be a journalist: you've got the touch!
Cheers, Rollick

[Keith]

Jon I suspect you are right when you say the two might be going in different directions. I would bet that they will become more and more divergent as time goes on and more and more generations pass. I was torn when I bought my dogs. I went with the GWP's but could have just as easily gone with the DD. It came down to a nearby breeder with pups ready to go.

[Baron]

Jon,

Fortunately there seems to be a growing interest in versatile dogs in this country. That is evidenced by the growing popularity of NAVHDA. In addition, many hunters, trainers, and breeders, first exposed to versatile dogs through their involvement with NAVHDA, have gone on to acquire DDs in an attempt to find truly versatile dogs. I have also noticed many GWP breeders incorporating DDs into their breeding programs in an effort to strengthen versatile traits in their lines.

Although, I am sure the divergence in GWPs lines will continue, hopefully those parties interested in establishing the GWP as a truly versatile hunting dog will be able to create and maintain a large enough genepool so that hunters can readily find versatile GWPs lines to acquire dogs from.

[Jon P]

NAVHDA has grown explosively over the past 30 years or so. The appeal is the opportunity to learn how to train a dog to be a versatile foothunters gun dog. However, NAVHDA has left it up to the owner/breeder to determine what, if anything, is important beyond testing. For this reason, it has become very difficult to find well conformed and coated dogs within the proven versatile dog ranks. Again, IMO NAVHDA has become another group that has chosen to ignore important aspects of the breed. The only organization I know that evalautes and stresses the importance of all aspects of the versatile dog including conformation, coat, temperament, etc. is the VDD. This is not to say that there are not individual GWP breeders that also set high standards. But, the genepool of top versatile dogs in the GWP ranks is very small, while it is huge within the European registries. This has to do with how we view dogs in this country - more of a hobby than a responsibility.
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Jon P

[LisaBoyer]

Hello Baron, Jon

I have been perusing this board and lurking. Something caught my eye, a comment Baron made, "I have also noticed many GWP breeders incorporating DDs into their breeding programs in an effort to strengthen versatile traits in their lines."

I have a question, please. In an effort to "start over" within this breed I decided to research several DD breeders in our area, (and some out of the district), only to find out that if you mention AKC and any involvement whatsoever, the hackles raise and your chance of aquiring a puppy is slim to none.

I try to be truthful when I am asked my involvement in the breed, should I lie? My husband is growing frustrated as this dog is for him. How do others manage to acquire a DD bred dog if they are also active within AKC? I have no intention of breeding again, so signing contracts is not an issue, yet I am not getting that far once AKC is mentioned.

Lisa
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*May your points be staunch, your retrieves without loss and the time spent with a beloved friend, often*

[Jon P]

Lisa,

Most members of the VDD are very suspicious of the AKC. You must remember that the VDD and its founders regard competition for trophies or ribbons as dangerous - when winning becomes more important than quality. The total commitment to the versatile dog and JGHV testing is far removed from the "do your thing" approach of AKC clubs. Its important to realize that the VDD is more or less a breeder's guild. Its understandable that breeders will want to place their promising pups in experienced hands, folks who will train, test, evaluate the dogs in the system with the goal of adding a good dog to the breeding pool.
I would expect DD breeders would be cautious of selling you a pup - the organization does not see its purpose as providing stock for other registries. It is an organization for its members, just like the GWPCA.
In addition, most breeders will only sell to hunters. There is no desire to see the DD become a simply the family pet, although they are excellent as pets as well. Almost all DD are but as working dogs as opposed to other sporting breeds.

I started over in DDs and dropped my GWP line several years ago. So, it is possible. You may try networking into the organization, becoming involved in local club activities and as you learn more about the registry, testing, breeding, etc your access to breeders may improve.
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Jon P

[LisaBoyer]

Thank you Jon.

I must be following the right moon, I had already done as you suggested

Rejoining the local NAVDHA chapter and attempting to become known seems to be the first step. My husband is new to dog ownership, but not the use of a shotgun, nor hunting. It is for this purpose we were seeking a new wire, one he could bond with and train for himself.

I understand the skeptism on the part of the DD breeders, thank you for your reply and hopefully in time, through the right channels, we can show our intent.

Lisa
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*May your points be staunch, your retrieves without loss and the time spent with a beloved friend, often*

[Jon P]

Lisa,

Good luck with your search. If you are truly interested in versatile dogs, then joinng NAVHDA and the local VDD group is the way to go. You will find many more people that speak "your" language at these events. Take your time and learn all you can about the various breeders and I'm sure you will identify one that you can work with.
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Jon P

[dorisval]

Hi Jon P

You are right in saying that DD in German does not indicate the Pointer. The DD's are also known as Deutsch Drahthaar Vorstehhund. The "Vorstehhund" bit translates into Pointer.

Kind regards,
Doris, a German living in the UK

[Jon P]

The official name of the breed is Deutsch Drahthaar. Nirgends wird es als Deutsch Drahthaar "Vorstehund" geschrieben. Der Weltverband hat sich neulich enschieden diese Rasse nur als Deutsch Drahthaar zu bezeichnen damit der DD nicht mit der GWP verwechselt wird. Für die Deutschen sind andere Anlagen viel wichtiger als Vorstehen, nämlich "Spur und Nase". Aber, dass müssen Sie doch wissen.
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Jon P