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German Accomplishments
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 05/19/08, 11:04 am    Post subject: German Accomplishments Reply with quote

Certain times I will reflect & consider what Germany has Engineered & produced among Working dogs (& Other things).
The finest Working & Sporting Dogs in my opinion, in the world.

Working: The German Shepherd, Rottweiler, Doberman, Riesen or Giant Schnauzer, Boxer.
(If one includes next door neighbor-the Belgian Malinois also)

Sporting: GWP, GSP, Weimaraner, DL, LM, SM, Pudelpointer

Hound/Terrier: Dachshund Teckel, Jadg Terrier, Hanover & Bavarian Hound, Plott Hound

What a Feat this is!
Not only did the produce them, But Reproduced them, so well.
Not sure of Pure American Breeds-Chesapeake, APBT, Boykin?


Not a rant but Im interested in understanding the American Breeder ethos & mentality, as it relates to the US Breeder of GWPs.
ie The tinkering, the specialization, the personalization, the competition.

Better/Worse?
Goals?
Plan long term?
Cooperative & working with like minded folks through the Breed Assoc?
Interested in bettering or adapting?
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Jon
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PostPosted: 05/20/08, 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm betting you end up having a discussion with yourself on this one!!!!
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PostPosted: 05/20/08, 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon wrote:
I'm betting you end up having a discussion with yourself on this one!!!!


Well he could have the conversation with your blowhardeness. After all weren't you involved with the GWPCA for roughly 25 years.....and it took you that long to figure out they weren't about the "betterment of the breed". So then you jumped ship to the VDD, and now they are the be all end all. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: 05/20/08, 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well he could have the conversation with your blowhardeness. After all weren't you involved with the GWPCA for roughly 25 years.....and it took you that long to figure out they weren't about the "betterment of the breed". So then you jumped ship to the VDD, and now they are the be all end all.


Nothing in dogs is the be all and end all. In the end, you decide what is important to you and you work for it. AKC events have no meaning or importance to me. I am not interested in trial dogs, show dogs, agility dogs, hunt tests, CGC or flyball (sic). They are not enough for me-much more is expected of versatile breeds. That's why I am in the VDD, but I don't kid myself...there are some excellent GWPs that could do any and all work that I might want...just not enough interest in such dogs. The majority of GWP owners don't care about top notch duck work, etc. I am always happy to recommend folks to good GWP kennels, if that is what they want.

You're making some incorrect assumptions. I do believe overall that the DD is a better versatile dog--because that's the only priority of the breed and registry.
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 06/23/08, 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon,
Ive never understood, & never will understand, why Americans breeders dont acknowledge the Success(es) of the Founders of these great breeds, & work in the same or even similar fashion, to promote & continue the tradition.

American Breeders, outside of the APBT (Gamebred Pits) have watered down & imo, destroyed almost everything they have come involved with in dogdom, in just a few decades.
(Sweeping broad brush generalization admitted)

Granted, the UKC, of which I belong to, has done a nice job....Hounds, Retreviers, Beagles are in good shape there overall, but still ownership is in the minority in this registry.

I proclaim this not as an indictment, but out of frustration.
Ive owned GSPs & English Setters in the past.
I will probably not own anything but a European import or Affiliate parent club as here in the states like the VDD GNA in the future.

Do many Americans think or feel this way also, or am I alone in my frustrations?
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 06/23/08, 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont' think you will find the fanatics in GWP's. The vast majority of the people who own this breed hunt their dogs, and hunt them on what they hunt them on.

They don't show, don't trial, don't test. They work their dogs. A very small percentage belong to the gwpca,and that's fine. Belonging to the club is a choice, not a mandate. A very small percentage ever sees a show ring, or a field trial.

If you choose the German system, good for you, go for it. Should you choose to do anything with your dog in the VDD system it will be mandated you become a member of that organization, and follow their rules. If that is what you need and want, it's out there for you to partake in and enjoy.

There are many that use the GWP as all around dogs, you just rarely hear them bragging about it. It's what they do, thats all.
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Jon
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PostPosted: 06/24/08, 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I dont' think you will find the fanatics in GWP's. The vast majority of the people who own this breed hunt their dogs, and hunt them on what they hunt them on.


I don't know any fanatics in the VDD--only folks that are proud of the tradition and want to be part of it. Folks in the VDD also hunt their dogs on "what they hunt them on" but they share the same standards when evaluating all dogs.

Quote:
They don't show, don't trial, don't test. They work their dogs. A very small percentage belong to the gwpca,and that's fine. Belonging to the club is a choice, not a mandate. A very small percentage ever sees a show ring, or a field trial.


NO DD ever sees a show ring or a field trial----and all breeding dogs must be tested and evaluated -- to do this, you have to be a member of the club. This has eliminated renegade breeders, fads, pet breeders, changes to the standard by breeders looking to make a name for themselves, dogs bred on the basis of beauty or other criteria.

Quote:
If you choose the German system, good for you, go for it. Should you choose to do anything with your dog in the VDD system it will be mandated you become a member of that organization, and follow their rules. If that is what you need and want, it's out there for you to partake in and enjoy.


True...in the VDD, the breed has priority over the membership. We have rules and members accept those rules, especially breeders. There are breeding regulations, performance minimums, coat and conformation evaluations for all breeding dogs.

Quote:
There are many that use the GWP as all around dogs, you just rarely hear them bragging about it. It's what they do, thats all.


I imagine very few GWP are used for much beyond field work. A few do some water work. The real challenge is determining where the good genepool is when so many dogs just disappear and when so many folks breed for so many different reasons. That is a very big difference--the VDD does pressure members to test and evaluate their dogs and there is only one standard of evaluation. This provides over time valuable info for the breeding community. Instead of breeding good dogs, you're better able to breed good lines and you know that these lines were all bred on the basis of versatile performance. The DD genepool is so large compared to the GWP, its probably unfair to compare the two. The other real advantage for all the European breeds is that you MUST train and qualify your dog to be able to take it hunting in many countries. This means that all hunting dogs are tested.
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 06/24/08, 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then may I suggest those interested in DD's go and post on a DD forum?
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PostPosted: 06/24/08, 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon,

You have got to be kidding me. I know 10 people that have GWP's, and all get tons of water work! The reason I bought my GWP is because of the water work. I'll let you know when I do meet someone who owns a GWP not used in the water, I'm sure they are out there, but I haven't found any yet.
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PostPosted: 06/24/08, 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The VDD doesn't even have a water test for their first testing level of the DD.

NAVHDA has a water portion in its NA test at least....even though it is pretty lame.. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: 06/24/08, 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The VDD doesn't even have a water test for their first testing level of the DD.

NAVHDA has a water portion in its NA test at least....even though it is pretty lame..


You're right ... they go right to the duck search and blind retrieve at the age of 18 months (on average). Have to do these well to be certified for breeding.
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 06/26/08, 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Repoman...
The Water portion even at the Intermediate level of the VDD test in the HZP or breeding test, is every bit the test of Navhda Utility. But age is under 18 months, maybe 14 months average.

It tests gunfire shyness in the water,
tests A Blind retreive to about 30-35 meters AND tests a Search behind the duck...which is primarily a cripple test (15-20 Minutes)

The dog never sees the duck, which is usually released from a canoe.
All Retreives must be completed & delivered to hand. There can be 4 all together, including the 2 field drags & 2 water ducks.

At the VGP or Finished Utility test, even more so, in addition to the other 26 testing categories.

Jumping in a pond to measure 'water love' imo, is totally ridiculous, Ive never been able to grasp why this is even tested.

I am not aware of American Breeding that has produced a dog greater or more versatile than the breed founders, Of ANY Breed.
Save perhaps the Gambred APBT.

The Chesapeake & Boykins practically lead the dog world in hip dysplasia
Maybe there are better GWPs than what Im aware of. I found the DD, through my frustration in getting a GWP & the long wait of a Pudelpointer.

There was too much type, either field trial or show emphasis or off type dog. I hadnt seen many NAVHDA GWPs, but many more GSPs.
I corresponded with one fellow in MN, Funks, that was thinking of breeding his GWPs to Labradors & wanted public feedback.
I cancelled any future discussion or interest in his kennel.
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PostPosted: 06/26/08, 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BS.....I have seen a certified to breed VDD male drahthaar that would not go after a live duck quacking and swimming right in front of it. The duck crossed, the dog followed, then the dog sat on a little clump of land between shores and would not leave it and barked at the duck as the duck swam to the far side shore. The owner had to walk around to the other side of the water area, shoot the quacking duck and then call his big male certified to breed drahthaar over to pick up the duck. It was pathetic and funny all in the same instance. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: 06/27/08, 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Almost Impossible..

Whats 'BS'?

The good news, is that if your story is true, (I doubt that it is)...is that dog is removed from the breeding gene pool if it Refuses ANY retrieve.
The command Fetch means Fetch. Its Paramount in importance.
Breed stock must perform 3-4 retrieves of Feather & Fur. From 40-400 meters.


This is the purpose, one anyway, of testing breeding stock
It was done with all working breeds & sporting breeds.

So too might dogs who fail retrieves, poor hips, are overly aggressive
Back to your point, Standard breed testing wasnt just Germans but Brits, French & Almost all Europeans.

All breed founders HAD Breeding & testing Standards. Everywhere but here.


Heres a short video of what one might see at a Breed Test.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7409009358440856182&hl=en

One US breeder & some water shots.
http://www.vomwasatch.com/gallery.html
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Last edited by whiskerdog1 on 06/27/08, 11:34 am; edited 3 times in total
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 06/27/08, 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you posted the wrong link for what we would see at a breed test?
IF not, then all I saw was a dog fetching a stick......not even a very big stick!
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