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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 04/10/08, 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Repo...On this we can agree

Wife hates begging, but likes when the dog cleans up after him, which is often. He is the sloppiest eater youve ever seen

Didnt mean to come on strong, but biting & aggression is often so misunderstood.
Unless one can really & truly read a dog, & has experience with aggression, often its misdiagnosed & dogs are too frequently put down through no fault of their own-I dont like to see that. Its certainly hard to do over the internet but I do my best.

Ill be working dogs tonight, a few dogs from the Air Force base & some Police K9s, well as some Sport dogs. Heres a nice Boxer Im working for a friend. And (to me) what a real Shepherd should look like.






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Jack Attack
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PostPosted: 04/14/08, 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate all the replies to my questions. Unfortunatley I a no further ahead in this problem than before. I do believe that Jack is biting out of fear. We have had this dog for 4 years. He has been around strangers all the time. He is very socialized. I am at a total loss as to why he is acting this way now after 4 years of total trust. I am going to consult a behavior specialist and see what we can do. Again thank you all for your feed back.
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 04/14/08, 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You said..
" this boy bent down and was making wierd noises at the dog and getting in his face close to the dog. All of a sudden Jack just jumped up and bit the boy and then ran back in the house."

No Child, EVER, should be Allowed in a dogs face doing what you described.
This isnt rocket science.

Make proper introductions.
If children cant behave responsibly (Your judgement call) then by all means, Crate your dog. Take Him out of a harmful situation potentially, to him or a child. There was nothing "All of a sudden" about this.. I wouldve seen this & Nipped it in about 2 seconds & Screamed at the kid & put my dog in a DOWN-submissive. Kids need taught acceptable behavior, most cant be trusted however.

A child doing what you described, IS a Threat or Challenge to a dog, as Perceived BY a dog.
View the photo I posted in the 1st page of a Decoy eye balling my dog-hard staring. This is exactly what trained agitators DO TO provoke a Bite from a Biting dog..
How do dogs make threats & Challeneges from one another? They eye ball each other, posture up & Growl. Can you read a Dog? Doesnt sound like it. No shame in it, but Id learn quickly.

You can pay a pyschologist all you want, But I just described exactly what any knowledgable one ( even without dog protection experience, more than likely) will tell you.
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PostPosted: 04/14/08, 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whiskerdog1 wrote:
You said..
" this boy bent down and was making wierd noises at the dog and getting in his face close to the dog. All of a sudden Jack just jumped up and bit the boy and then ran back in the house."

No Child, EVER, should be Allowed in a dogs face doing what you described.
This isnt rocket science.

Make proper introductions.
If children cant behave responsibly (Your judgement call) then by all means, Crate your dog. Take Him out of a harmful situation potentially, to him or a child. There was nothing "All of a sudden" about this.. I wouldve seen this & Nipped it in about 2 seconds & Screamed at the kid & put my dog in a DOWN-submissive. Kids need taught acceptable behavior, most cant be trusted however.

A child doing what you described, IS a Threat or Challenge to a dog, as Perceived BY a dog.
View the photo I posted in the 1st page of a Decoy eye balling my dog-hard staring. This is exactly what trained agitators DO TO provoke a Bite from a Biting dog..
How do dogs make threats & Challeneges from one another? They eye ball each other, posture up & Growl. Can you read a Dog? Doesnt sound like it. No shame in it, but Id learn quickly.

You can pay a pyschologist all you want, But I just described exactly what any knowledgable one ( even without dog protection experience, more than likely) will tell you.


While I don't disagree with your assessment Whiskerdog1, you have to remember no matter what, the dog is aways wrong, and it will be looked at that way in a court of law.

So he has to make the decision if he wants to let the loaded revolver lay on the coffee table. No matter how many guests he tells not to touch the gun, because the gun is loaded......you know some dim-wit is going to pick up the revolver and pull the trigger at some time.

Then he is done......it will be his fault for having the gun(dog) on the coffee table.

Sad
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 04/15/08, 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You summed it up well

I Dont believe that guns kill people, But that People Kill People
And it doesnt take a gun, but knives, hammer, bat, car, axe, poison, fists et al

Therefore..I thoroughly teach my children the dangers of guns & weapons, & instruct them the hows/dos/donts of rules & such, just as my Father did-I grew up around guns. Its really very simple

I also Dont believe that the dog is wrong or in the wrong.
But rather, Its The Owner, that is wrong..for Not properly monitoring, teaching acceptable behavior & boundaries And Rules for children, strangers & Dog alike.

Blame Everybody else but yourself, its the American way.
And the lawyers will see to it that someone gets paid, including themselves handsomely, for peoples stupidity & lack of responsibility
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Anita
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PostPosted: 04/23/08, 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack Attack,

I do agree with whiskerdog1, it was the kid that provoked it. The best way to cure is obedience work and a crate.

One of my girls (she's two now) was freaked out just like that by my nephew. For a few months I had to crate her when we had visitors since I couldn't trust her with strangers. She is a lot better now after a lot of obedience work. I also tell people who come to our home, not to acknowledge this dog in any way, not even looking at her. If you have a chance to watch Cesar Millan aka "Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic, you should. I started watching his show and decided to try some of his methods just so that I can prove him wrong.... well, I couldn't. His methods work. I especially like his "No touch, no talk, no eye contact" advice he gives people who come to his center... It really works since the dogs don't feel threatened. He also has a couple of books out. The new one has methods on how to work you dogs.

Good luck and keep us updated.
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Jon
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PostPosted: 04/25/08, 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I especially like his "No touch, no talk, no eye contact" advice he gives people who come to his center... It really works since the dogs don't feel threatened. He also has a couple of books out. The new one has methods on how to work you dogs.


Good word folks---who is running the house---the dogs or the people. We should all be careful of how we intereact with our dogs--what we can and can't do-how we look--our posture--our gestures??? The real question with all these dogs is will you be able to trust the dog and the answer is no. Legally, you can't trust the dog because with knowledge that the dog has bitten, you can't put the dog in a situation where it can bite again NO MATTER whose fault it is.

Let's be honest here--such dogs are not for broad public consumption. There are too many dogs THAT ARE challenged by children--that ARE stared at by strangers--- that don't bite. Dogs that react to such dominance issues by biting are not sound dogs for public consumption. True dominant dogs don't react to every perceived threat--they are secure and masters of their domain. I have a large male that has been challenged numerous times by little nervous Fi-Fi's and all he does is go around them--he could care less.

I am concerned that we see unsound dogs as acceptable and simply mainstream them with treatment. Sound dogs survive poor handling without being destructive or aggressive. I agree that owners need to set boundaries, but there are too many amateurs that prove that properly tempered dogs don't require extraordinary training.

Dogs that exhibit this behaviour repeatedly (not just a puppy phase "testing the waters" type of thing) need to be seperated from any potential problems or put down. It is sad that we can't train owners before they get the dog--but in the end, one stitch on a child's face is not worth any dog.
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RAKOWSKI33
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PostPosted: 05/01/08, 6:04 pm    Post subject: I CAN'T BELIEVE MY EYES1 Reply with quote

It disgusts me thoroughly that someone would EVER think of using a GWP for any kind of Protection/ Schutzhund work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are hunting dogs and were bred for hundreds of years to do just that. They were bred to WORK WITH MAN AND NOT AGAINST MAN!
Aloof does not mean Aggressive and the shear thought of someone owning a wire and turning it into a ticking timebomb is mortifying!

Stick to your p.o.s., displastic shepherds for that!
God, some people are so ignorant. I hope to God you are not a member. Nor a breeder.
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PostPosted: 05/02/08, 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well sadly your are incorrect there. The DD was used and bred for guard work in Germany too. If you watch old WWII film clips you will see many DDs in the footage being handled by the German guards.

And the GWP was not bred for hundreds of years, the founding of the DD in Germany is just about 100 years old. The DD/GWP has not been around long, though many of its foundation breeds were around long before the DD/GWP. Wink
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PostPosted: 05/02/08, 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Socialize, socialize, socialize !!

Gwp's can be wary of anything new but if introduced to as much as possible in as positive a way as possible from a young age they imbrace new people, places and situations. If they are not exposed to things in a positive way from a young age and have not learned to be accepting and adaptable of course they will instead feel challenged or intimidated.

We have had a number of different breeds the one who was the worst about stangers and new things was our golden, he was our first dog as a couple and he did not get the socialization he deserved.

Mud, who died last xmas eve of cancer was showing some food and dog aggression at around 10-14 mos. He knew all his basic obediance but I signed us up for a class anyway. and from that point on he started going everywhere with me. After a while I had no issues with small children or other stangers aproaching him. He went to local sportsmans shows with us when we had our fly shop and met hundreds of people a day. The only issue was he thought kids came in different flavors, chocolate, ketchup, apple juice....etc and he liked to try them all with a big face washing kiss.

Having been attact once by a mostly white pitbull type dog that was his only trigger but he always called off befor there was any trouble due to his training. He was only 8 when he died and he had been invited for the last 2 years to take a citizenship and therepy class by the trainer at my vets because of he wonderful nature.

By the way there were 2 dogs in his litter of 9 that did end up with aggession issues. They were kennel dogs with very little exppoosure to anyony out side of family.

it's the age old question - is it nature or nurture?
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RAKOWSKI33
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PostPosted: 05/03/08, 4:38 pm    Post subject: reply to repo.....please do your homework. Reply with quote

"The Deutsch Drahthaar was created in Germany in the late 19th century by a small group of dedicated breeders who set out to develop a versatile hunting dog that would satisfy all aspects of German hunting in field, forest, and water. This group of breeders succeeded in creating a versatile hunting dog that took its traits from the best dogs of the existing coarse hair breeds, cross bred with the shorthair blood. These ancestors included the Stichelhaar, Pudelpointer, Griffon, and the Deutsch-Kurzhaar."

German wirehaired pointers and Griffon type dogs can be traced back to the 1800's, thus making it a couple hundred years as I stated!

The DD'd that you see in your movies may have been used for protection work, however that is not what the breed was made to do.

The GWP was made back when the rich people in Germany had several dogs for several aspects of hunting, i.e. upland, water, tracking, ect...

The GWP was developed so that anyone could afford to have a hunting dog THAT COULD DO IT ALL!

"While the Deutsch-Drahthaar is a superb hunting companion, they are also well suited as a family dog. DD's are normally gentle and friendly with children and other dogs, and are known to become protective of their "family" and home. Their intelligence and calm manner help them in adjusting to various living conditions. VDD Breeding Regulations specify that DD's who show unwarranted aggressiveness toward people or other dogs are to be removed from the breeding program, so these traits do not get passed on."
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PostPosted: 05/05/08, 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: reply to repo.....please do your homework. Reply with quote

RAKOWSKI33 wrote:
"The Deutsch Drahthaar was created in Germany in the late 19th century by a small group of dedicated breeders who set out to develop a versatile hunting dog that would satisfy all aspects of German hunting in field, forest, and water. This group of breeders succeeded in creating a versatile hunting dog that took its traits from the best dogs of the existing coarse hair breeds, cross bred with the shorthair blood. These ancestors included the Stichelhaar, Pudelpointer, Griffon, and the Deutsch-Kurzhaar."

German wirehaired pointers and Griffon type dogs can be traced back to the 1800's, thus making it a couple hundred years as I stated!

The DD'd that you see in your movies may have been used for protection work, however that is not what the breed was made to do.

The GWP was made back when the rich people in Germany had several dogs for several aspects of hunting, i.e. upland, water, tracking, ect...

The GWP was developed so that anyone could afford to have a hunting dog THAT COULD DO IT ALL!

"While the Deutsch-Drahthaar is a superb hunting companion, they are also well suited as a family dog. DD's are normally gentle and friendly with children and other dogs, and are known to become protective of their "family" and home. Their intelligence and calm manner help them in adjusting to various living conditions. VDD Breeding Regulations specify that DD's who show unwarranted aggressiveness toward people or other dogs are to be removed from the breeding program, so these traits do not get passed on."


Isn't that what I pretty much said? Tell me something I don't know..... These are "dogs" not children......... Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: 05/05/08, 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aloof
Adjective: distant, cold, reserved, cool, formal, remote, forbidding, detached, indifferent, chilly, unfriendly

The standard claims the the breed to be ALOOF. Or can be.
Very similar in fact to the German Shepherd, which also calls for Aloof

RAKOWSKI:
What you saw in the above picture was not a "dysplastic shepherd", but a Czech Import, a true working dog. To suggest dysplasia, is to suggest the insane & the ridiculous. Im not surprised. The internet experts are in rare form...or not. Just usual form. You said.. "Some people are so ignorant."
I agree wholeheartedly.

If a dog of mine did Not protect me, my truck or family, Id cull it. Or at best..neuter it.
Read the standard. Again. Read some history While youre at it.
Read what "aloof" means.
Havent been around many working dogs huh? Chessies, Sheperds, Rotts et al.

Its my dog.
I train the way I want. I have multiple titles on my DD. (VDD. HRC, PSA.)
I also raise her as a family dog. Shes smart enough to discern a threat/foe from a friend. And acts accordingly. Is around young children often. Unsupervised.
Just because Ive actually tested her nerve & practiced it, in a controlled setting..does not make her a "timebomb "

Quite the opposite. I know Exactly how she will react. Thats the point.
You train so you dont have to think. Dogs are the same. Under stress, a dog reverts to genetics. Ive tested genetics.
The CONTROL in a well trained protection dog is a thing of marvel. Not unwarranted aggression.
Your over reaction & even Hyper reaction to the very concept, is not surprising.

PROTECTING home/owner is Not working "against man."
Its working FOR MAN. Thats the point.

Heres my "Timebomb" guarding my kids. Try to step inside the yard & youll be charged. Golly she hunts too. Even has a decent goose call.
And a 2nd of my "Dysplastic" Czech import. Not seen too many do this however..








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RAKOWSKI33
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PostPosted: 05/06/08, 11:28 pm    Post subject: IGNORANCE IS BLISS TO SOME, I GUESS Reply with quote

Hey Whiskerdog,
Working dogs???? Chessies???
Why don't you look up what group Chessies are in! It surely isn't working! It's hunting. Also, if you've ever worked with Chessies, you would know that they also are wildly unpredictable dogs.

Also, while you are in the book looking up YOUR HISTORY of dogs and what group they are in...why don't you learn how to spell Shepherd.

You own one right???? You should probably know how to spell it then.
Enough Said.
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 05/07/08, 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAKOWSKI..
In my above post, I spelled out the word "GERMAN SHEPHERD" or Schaeferhund, & didnt see a missspelling.
I even posted a few pics of mine, theres no confusion to the reader, except from your ridiculous & insane posts.
Im often too lazy when dealing with the misinformed to use spell check.
So forgive please

Chessies=Sporting Dog, That Can work.
Ive seen many. Attended a National Chessie Event last year. I run & train HRC. We have a few in our local club.
I like em.
I wouldnt dare call them "Wildly unpredictable". They are anything BUT, with their owners or when retreiving.
But they too were bred to protect a masters Catch from would be thieves. For some reason, you see no appeal in this, whereas I do.
I appreciate it.

Schutzhund is nothing more than an old Breed Certification used for German Working breeds, but not confined to them, recently its become a Sport. There was a SCHh 3 Standard Poodle that took high in trial in Germany in 1973.
You erroneously call such dogs "Wildly unpredictable" when the exact opposite, is true. They are extrememly Predictable. Thats the point of training & testing.

One trains in martial arts or combat to perfect moves, counter moves, attacks, reactions. You train so that you dont have to think.
Dog Sport Protection is NOT permineter guarding.
It is a Response to a stimulus. ie a Threat in a controlled setting
It is also a dog triathalon. Strict & Precise Obedience + Tracking + Protection

Many dogs have such SchH certs...from Border Collies, Labs, Chessies, Poodles, Aussies, Pits
I have some video of a IPO routine (International Rules SCHh) so that you may better inform yourself.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mwiMYTeVXFA
Theres some saying about Not being able to Fix stupid, though I sure try. Enough said
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