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Coat color change
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All very good thoughts but yet again, noone has given me a reason how the full recognition of B/W provides any benefit to the breed.

Since the show ring is a forum where appearance is the governing factor,
is appearance enough grounds to change the breed standard? White dogs were very controversial during its popularization and remain a significant % of the breed today. The rush to white dogs was pushed by the show ring enthusiasts and seconded by certain hunting enthusiasts that thought the white dog would be easier to see in the field (note that there is never any discussion about the white dog in the water or woods!).

If B/W dogs are given full recognition, will we accept the SOLID black dog!
Certainly that will be next.

Just wondering...
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Keith
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that any country accepts solid black. But it would make more sense than a dog that was almost solid white. How are you going to use a solid white dog for versatile hunting. I guess you could keep it in a camo neoprene vest. The preferred color should be the liver and white. It provides the best camouflage. But the black and white roan is better than a dog that is predominately white. Like it or not, the black and white wirehairs are not going to go away.
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The B/W is already here - the real question is will the official breed club recognize that fact and take a leadership role in educating its membership and the rest of the GWP world as far as the genetics. Leadership is really the issue here, not holding back the floodgates. This responsibility should be undertaken whether the club votes full recognition to the B/W or not. And by the way Keith, using white as an example, how would you prevent solid black?

Personally, I think this standard should be left as it is. As written, it provides a safeguard that the show ring can't be used to popularize a color that has the ability to change the face of the breed - afterall, black is dominant. Since that leaves the performance venues open to the B/W dog, there is less chance that the B/W can become popular because the color brings no performance advantage. Sounds sensible to me - maybe the standard writers had it right all along.

Dog shows don't do much for the breed. I'm amazed at the number of good looking dogs I see of various versatile breeds in Europe and they're just using conformation and coat evaluations, not competitive venues. Dog shows are for the owners - not the breed. The "best dog of the day" format doesn't really identify good dogs.

So what's the trade-off? You can open the gates to a color fad that by definition is self perpetuating since black is dominant. OR, you can leave it as it is and let the B/W dog find its way into perfomance pedigrees based on ability. That would seem self limiting to me. B/W dogs don't have a lock on performance by a long shot. Dedicated breeders still have the option of using B/W dogs in their breeding programs. Besides, what's a CH worth?
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Keith
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never seen a solid black dog. What causes it, crossing a solid liver to a black and white?
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the all liver dog would bring the gene for solid patterning and the black dog the color. In theory, I suppose an all white dog could do the same. I'm not aware of any countries (other than possibly the US already) where white dogs have been bred to B/W dogs. White dogs are not allowed in Germany and the FCI member countries.

Now there is a question - what DOES happen when you breed white dogs to B/W dogs? You'd probably get some dogs with big patches of solid black and white, sort of a checkerboard (also not allowed in Germany). How long do you think it would take for solid blacks to be trotting around the show ring? Sort of a smaller Giant Schauzer, without the ears cropped!! Wink
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Keith
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you have a point. Since we don't have any restrictions on breeding. I would like to see the liver and white ticked or roan remain the dominate color. I would never breed a black and white to a black and white or a black and white to a solid liver. And I have never owned a white wirehair and never will.
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birddog
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon, The trouble in what you say is this. Right now we have a B/W field champion. Every one is starting to breed to this dog. NAVHDA is very strong on B/W. NAVHDA 's registry was started to give the non papered Drarthaar a #. NAVHDA register's them as GWP'S. AKC would not accept the NAVHDA registered dog so NAVHDA talked the FDSB to accept their NAVHDA regestered dogs. With this FDSB acceptance the door was now opened to register these NAVHDA and FDSB dogs with the AKC. Only because of the acceptance of FDSB did AKC accept these dogs for registration. Two pictures a copy of the FDSB papers and a 4 generation pedigree, we now have a B/W GWP. The show side of the GWPCA , to breed hunt back into their show dogs have started to breed to these NAVHDA dogs. I feel this has caused the B/W to pop up in many breedings today. Several years back you never saw as many B/W's GWP'S as you are seeing today. Because of this, it has become very hard to select a stud or bitch without the fear it will produce B/W. Some don't want B/W regardless of show or field unless the standard reads that B/W is an accepted color as is L/W, or that the standard is changed to read B/W is an alternate color... Now tell me Jon , what is wrong with that logic? To leave things as they are is a double standard. I really don't think the GWPCA members who have used some of these NAVHDA studs intended or thought that these breedings would cause B/W litters. But now that this has happened something had to be done so these B/W pups could get registered. That is why AKC was sent the letter to put B/W as an alternate color. I still feel the entire membership should of had a vote before such action was taken. This is my opinion. This is the way I see it. All can do as they please, this is "AMERICA" and we all have the freedom to voice an opinion. I give my reasons but like you Jon, no one will say why we should accept B/W. Janet
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Keith
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And on top of that since the show ring doesn't accept B&W dogs you know that the breeder of one is a field breeder and not a show breeder. Hunters more interested in hunting and versatility than how they look in the show ring might be more inclined to look at B&W dogs.
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birddog
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know who you are reffering to, but there are several field trial members of the GWPCA who not only field trial but also show, who have B/W GWP's. To go one step further, they also sit on the board of the GWPCA!
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Keith
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would a show person want a dog that couldn't be shown.
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What FC is black and white. I know of one that is actively competing, did she finish?

Liver and white bred to liver and white are produceing black and white puppies? (NAVHDA, FDSB,AKC, VDD or whatever?) If that is so, we need to know who, what, when and where. This is totally against any genetic teaching I have ever read about! If not, then your post is terribly misleading and needs to be explained.

I have written about 11 replies to all of these messages, but have thrown them all out. Mixed emotions do not make good posts.

Janet, once again I ask you to check your fact before you make statements. Some things you say are just simply untrue and are misleading folks. Anyone wishing to know, please PM me and I will explain.

And, anyone who doesn't understand how one gets either black puppies in a litter, or how one can get a solid black, should probably not be voting on a breed standard. This isn't a "slap", but you should have a really good understanding of what can produce what before you even consider casting a vote for or against anything. And to vote on, or make suggestion for any change in a standard, you really should have an inimate knowledge of the standard. A good test for anyone... can you quote any paragraph within reason? If not, go and read it again, and again and again. Then go out and apply it to actual physical dogs for a couple of years. Make sure you understand why certain things are stated as they are... don't guess. Understand the subtleties of such statements as " moderate" and "well laid back". Do you know what is meant by "hocks well let down"? Ask questions, ask again. And then, maybe you will have enough information to really understand a breed standard. It's not as simple as it looks. Standards are a blueprint, something to follow, not in concrete.

Please, folks, if and when this comes up, ask questions, good questions, any question. Just do not take someones word for gospel. There is an awful lot of nonsense that goes about on lists.

I have always enjoyed this list because it was not full of political bull. We state our opinions, we go on about our business.... it's about the dogs, should be about the dogs. The future of the dogs... so if and when you are asked to cast a ballot about anything, please think carefully.

It's unfortunate that some want to promote an agenda by spreading untruths. So be careful of the opinions you develop.

Bernee Brawn
Justa GWP's
since 1980
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birddog
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bernee, seems that you are doing your best to undermine the truths. What exactly are you afraid of? Seems you are representing the B/W side? If B/W is so desirable, why isn't it good for the entire breed and the standard changed to accept it (which is exactly my point)? Further, I can challenge anyone at any time on the facts of the (AKC GWP) breed. The B/W field champ I am refuring to is a male, but may have been registered as 'liver'. Please get your facts straight before you accuse me of untruths. I can name names of both kennels and people, but out of respect and for ethical reasons, at this time I will refrain from doing so. However, if push comes to shove, then that will be another alternative. Let's be honest with the readers; if you and others didn't have something to hide, there would not be an issue, nor would there be a double standard for the breed. If you are headed in the direction of proving facts as you claim, I am ready! Let the good times, and facts of truth roll! Janet
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Last edited by birddog on 08/27/03, 6:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Tony
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

birddog,

Have you seen this B&W FC that "everyone" is breeding to? If Bernee hasn't seen him on the East Coast, I haven't seen or heard of him in the Mid-West, then he must be out West.

Regarding B&W pups popping up in many breedings, are these the breeding of 2 liver dogs that are producing these pups?

If I e-mail you, will you give me the specifics regarding the "truths" such as names and pedigrees?
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birddog
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I have and at the trial a breeding took place with this B/W. To answer you second question. Yes. a litter of 7 , both parents L/W one male pup was Black/roan, and another had Black in the coat.. Answer to your third question. No, not at this time. Janet
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Tony
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PostPosted: 08/27/03, 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

birddog,

I'm pretty sure that I know the FC that you are talking about, and I also witnessed the breeding that you are referring to if it was done during the wirehair trial at Ottawa last Spring. I think you should take a closer look at Jack because you will see that he is LIVER & WHITE, not black. Are we talking about the same dog?

Regarding the litter of 7 with 2 black pups. This must be a genetic miracle, or the bitch was unknowingly bred to another dog. I would suggest DNA profiles be taken on all of the suspect pups.
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