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aggression concern

 
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cknight
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PostPosted: 08/03/08, 8:51 pm    Post subject: aggression concern Reply with quote

I have a new dog, my first German Wirehair. He was born July 1 2007 and I purchased him when the was three months old. He has been a blast, a lot of fun to work with with, I have forgot how much energy dogs have when they are pups.

I took him to a trainer for a three month stay on May 15, 2008. Before I took him to the trainer the only issues I have had with him has been barking at young boys running through my yard. ( he is kennel confined during the day but my 17 year old son or I would get him out each day to play with and throw a dummy for him to fetch ). I have checked with the trainer from time to time and he is doing great, pointing, backing, retrieving to hand, just finishing up and ready to come home, that is until last Sunday. I called the trainer last week to schedule going to get him and the trainer had this story to tell.

Last sunday morning he was working my dog with a English Setter, not sure of the sex. The setter was on point and my dog came up behind him and backed him from around 20 to 30ft. The trainer walked over and adjusted my dogs stance and than walked up, past the setter to shoot the bird. After walking past the setter, he did not see what happened, the dogs got in a huge fight. It was all he could do to break up the fight and keep the dogs apart. He even tells me he thinks my dog tried to bite him when he put him out on his chain, where he keeps the dogs during part of the day. Neither dog received any physical damage, but he tells me both have taken a major set back on training. He is keeping my dog for and extra two weeks to try to work through this and also because he tells me he had been sick for a week to 10 days and feel he owes me the time.

I am not sure if it was the period of time the trainer had been sick and not able to work with him or if it is aggressive issues starting to emerge. I have talked to the person I purchased the dog from, he tells me he is not aware of any issues with any of his litter mates or the parents. I guess time will tell if he is going to become an aggressive dog against other people or other dogs.

Is there any information someone can point me to to learn about aggression issues with this breed, what causes it, can it be fixed, Etc?

Any comments or suggestions for me?
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Repoman
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PostPosted: 08/03/08, 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was dog on dog aggression.......keep and eye on him. He looks at any dogs crossed eyed you set him in his place.

As far as biting at the trainer....when dogs are fighting with each other any one trying to break up the dog fight in the heat of the battle is in danger of being bitten. My 2 cents.
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cknight
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PostPosted: 08/04/08, 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I talked to the trainer today, not much improvment. This is what I found out.

He says, the dog is not minding well, for the most part, wants to do his own thing. He tells me when he reaches under the dog to adjust his stance, he has nipped at he a few times. I ask him how he acts when he is just around him, not in a working situation. He tells me the dog shows lots of affection to both him and his wife, wants to be close to them, is excited to see them, wants to be with them. He did tell me that even when he was sick, he would go into his kennel and spend time with him each day.

He has eight kennels he keeps dogs for training, all in a row, and a few of his personal dogs chained out in other areas. I the morning and afternoon when he is working dogs, he takes them out of the kennel and chains them to a short chain connected to a long chain tied down in his lawn. He is now working my dog first or last and putting him up as he wants to bite other dogs when he comes in contact with them.

He wants to keep him untill mid or late August, but I am wondering if I should not just go ahead ahead and go get him. Seems if he is not making any progress, there is no reason to continue with this.

Any thoughts or comments?
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PostPosted: 08/04/08, 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For one, wires do not(for the most part) make good kennel dogs. Two, tell him to keep his hands off the dog on point. The dog points the way he points, keep his hands off it. Your trainer sounds like a "Sally" setter guy.......your GWP is too much real dog for him and he can't handle him. Rolling Eyes
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cknight
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PostPosted: 08/04/08, 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Repoman, PM sent

I agree with you on the "hands off" I am not into the whole style issue. As for the GWP being to much dog, maybe so. He has worked with only a few of them, he mostly works with pointers, german shorthairs and setters and from what I am finding out, this breed is quite different.

I am going to do a progress check on Thursday and if there is no improvment, I am going to go get him on Saturday. He was pointing, backing, retreving, this is all in him now, its time for me to go pick him up and get him working to please me!
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GWPnovice
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PostPosted: 08/05/08, 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CK,

Repo is right, GWPs have a different temperment than other breeds for the most part.

As a favor, I had the opportunity to board a GWP pup for a couple days that was being returned to the breeder (same person I got my dog from) because the new owner said it was too aggressive. Biting and hyper.

Got the 3 month old pup in my hands, pretty much the same temperment as mine at that age. He was nipping at first, but after a few corrections the pup sat calmly in my lap. The guy returning the pup said that he could never get the pup to sit still in his lap like that, he was actually a little mad that I could get the pup to do that.

He was used to setters, he wasn't firm enough with the pup, he let the pup be the boss. I almost kept that pup, and wish I had because the breeder kept him and he's working out just fine.

I'm guessing that the problem with your dog is that he went from a fun loving home, to a place where he spends too much time in the kennel. Then, on top of that he's seeing a bunch of different dogs coming and going, and he's fighting for more attention. I feel that once you get him home he will still rebel a bit, but will soon be that same dog you had before you sent him to school. Just be firm with him, and make sure that he understands who the boss is. JMO
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Jon
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PostPosted: 08/05/08, 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a different take on this.

First off, I think you need to get your pup back ASAP...not because there is anything wrong with this trainer but because the dog is not ready to be trained. IMO, this dog needs to accept obedience and basic handling. If this dog will not accept being handled, how will you cut his nails, examine him for injury, etc....a dog should accept being handled while on point.

I would put this dog through obedience A to Z. To my way of thinking, it is not acceptable for any dog to impose its will on the handler...and that's what this dog is doing.

I think you may have an aggression problem. How a dog gets from the backing position to a full fledged dog fight is suspect, to say the least. I am not overly worried.....this is a young dog and it is not unusual to see young dogs try to push the envelope. But, this needs to be dealt with quickly.

It is not really a trainer's responsibility to deal with this...and it sounds like this trainer is not dealing with it.

Get the dog home...
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PostPosted: 08/05/08, 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not disagree with what Jon said either.
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RAKOWSKI33
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PostPosted: 08/09/08, 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Jon also.
It does seem strange that 2 dogs would get into it in the field, especially if they are both working and focused on birds. But, young dogs will be dogs and they will try to assert themselves especially if this setter was a new dog that your dog had never been properly introduced to outside of the field. I do think that you need to get your dog back NOW, true not necessarily because of what is going on with the trainer, but you need to CHANGE THE AIR. Now your dog assimilates this bad experience with this guy and the same training area, and worst of all with birds every time he goes out. I do think you should work on just socialization with the dog and hold off on the formal training until your dog is accepting of everything and everyone.
It may be aggression. Unfortunately I have seen some bad cases in this breed and it makes me sick when people keep breeding aggressive dogs.. However, if your dog is young, you may be able to get him in check and let him know he is not calling the shots!

I also agree that once the dog is on point, unless it is creeping up ...you leave it be. It is doing what comes naturally and not all dogs point the same way.

Get your dog home and take it to parks, kids baseball games, dog classes and ask people to pet, pet, pet your dog....praise praise, praise. I would just work on letting your dog play with birds again, work on retrieving and making things positive for him.

I would like to know who your trainer was though, for my own knowledge if you will indulge with a p.m.....
I do worry that your dog was in a kennel though and was sick for 7-10 days and you were not notified. That would piss me off for sure.

I wish you luck with your dog. Keep us posted!
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cknight
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PostPosted: 08/15/08, 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got him home, at this point in time no show of aggression to me or the family. I will give him a few days to get used to us and then take him to Lowe's early in the morning and after a few trips there, some trips to pet smart on a tight leash.

I guess time will tell but my initial reaction is about all he did was feed him half food rations and leave in in a kennel for three mounths. My wife summed it up real quick, she said "all he did was beat the puppy out of him". I hope thats no the case but we will see. I have not raised a hand to him or picked up any sticks, ropes or other items that one would use to beat a dog with, but from my experiences, the truth will come out over time.

I wich I had found this site four mounths ago, I will be back here oftion.

Thanks for all the advice
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 08/16/08, 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read your post a couple of times and a couple of things come to mind.

first, this is a puppy! He is only just a year old and it sounds like the trainer was expecting an awful lot out of him. That pressure can bring out all sorts of behaviors, resentment is one of them.

Not being there to see what transpired between the two dogs makes it nearly impossible to make a true call on what happened, but there are several scenarios that are possible. Could be that your boy busted out of the back and knocked into the other dog thereby causing the fight. Could be the other dog took offense to your dog busting by him and going for the bird. Who knows?

I do know that when dogs get into it, and when people get involved, it's highly possible that person could get bit. And not on purpose from the dogs point of view. Even taking him back to the chain, I'm betting the trainer wasn't too happy or gentle and your dog was probably upset as well.

One other thing, at this age your dog is just starting to feel his oats and is changing from puppy to adulthood. They go through some strange behaviours at this time and it's important for you to stay focused, calm and on track. Don't allow him any slack, but don't get heavy handed with him either. Give him the chance to get past this, be patient, be calm and get him out and working.

When you are considering sending a GWP with a trainer, it's good to find out if that trainer has worked with this breed before. They don't take to training like some other breeds, and the wrong techniques can turn a great candidate into a useless dog.

Good luck with your pup... remember he is still a puppy! Lots of time for serious training down the road.
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cknight
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PostPosted: 08/18/08, 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI, He is now 13.5 mounths old.

I am sure some of the issues could have been age, but from what I a tell, it may have been as much neglect or maybe even abuse that was the cause. He has been home three days and from what I can tell, no signs of aggression. I have in introduced him to the German Sheppard across the street and also took him to one of the Big Box pet stores Sunday Morning. He does not show any signs of being an Alpha Male or developing into one. I guess we will never know the truth untill he gets around other dogs outside of a controlled enviroment but for now, I just dont see any signs of aggression torward other dogs or people.

I have contacted the Georga NAVDA chapter and hope to get training work in with them.
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PostPosted: 08/18/08, 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats good news! I don't think I would stress myself too much about it, just keep an eye on him and get him out for some good runs. Have fun!
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whiskerdog1
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PostPosted: 08/18/08, 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dual & Jon,

I agree with much of what you both say.
It appears that this was started when...your dog started creeping and/or wanted to make that bird he honored, His own.
The setter would have none of it, and reacted by showing possession.

I have a hunt buddy with a setter, and we have had this very issue, with our dogs on point. When my dog backs his Setter, the setter is possessive, as is mine.

I just watch mine close and cue in when I see potential problems to call her off & respond to his dogs growling or showing possessiveness to avoid a skirmish.
My dog usually makes all of the retrieves, his isnt that worried about them. But his Setter wont tolerate another dog creeping her points.
No biggie.

This trainer has probably not worked with Wires, Drahts or more dominant dogs.
A Wire or Draht is NOT a Setter. Not by a long shot.
He likely reprimanded your dog in hard fashion, and the dog reacted to him as well with some teeth or back off growl.
Ive Been there done that years ago!

Wires & Drahts are challenging to train, or can be, to a trainer not used to them.
They were for me, I come from a Setter & Gsp background.
Always make sure your trainer knows Wires/DDs etc before sending off to train. And let him know that many wont start fights but will work to finish them and wont take hard hard corrections. Be fair, be smart and dogs do fine.
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