German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America
AKC Parent Club for the German Wirehaired Pointer
 
 ForumForum FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
 gwpca bulletin boardGWPCA Home Page   gwpca bulletin boardBulletin Board   gwpca bulletin boardGWPCA Rescue Page 

German Accomplishments
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index -> General Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Repoman
Guest





PostPosted: 07/03/08, 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
HRC is now basically a Training test...blinds, marks, handles, but it is still a challenging test.


All of the tests from all of the organizations are about the "training", whether it is NAVHDA, VDD, AKC, or UKC......it all about training.

But you can't train a dog to follow a scent left by a duck over water and through the marsh...........UKC judges will tell you they know which way the wind is blowing, they want to see the dog handled to the bird. They believe they can lead the dog to bird, because the dog needs to be lead to the bird. Funny I have not needed to handle any dogs in real duck hunting. If a dog uses the wind or its nose, they say the dog SOB-stumbled on bird!! Laughing And you flunk the test.

NAVHDA has initiated phony duck searches due to e-collar training and test sight alterations and modifications to accomadate low desire NAVHDA bred dogs. These gimmicks and deceit allow low desire dogs to pass their test to "improve" the breeds......and on and on and on........

The AKC has become more about color and looks than what a dog can do afield....hence black is frowned upon in GWPs.......

It is all BS.......just examples of man's vanity as he deludes himself that he is doing things for the "betterment of the breed".

It is as the late great George Carlin would say........ "a big BS story." Laughing Laughing
Back to top
whiskerdog1
Master
Master


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt

PostPosted: 07/04/08, 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We agree on Carlin, his soul rest in peace, but Little else

Every German Hunt test, In Germany, is done on WILD GAME..
How in the bloody Hell do you propose that its a 'trained test'?
These are Wild pheasants, quail, hare & roe deer.
Tests can be lengthy if game is non abundant, to travel to different fields.

It might be best if you bothered to learn a little bit about the tests & testing conditions, before typing to save yourself some embarassment.

I duck hunt 2-3x/ week
I probably handle my dog to a duck every few hunts, out of necessity.
In one case a year ago, to avoid a collision with a train, near a flooded field. I had to call her off completely, bring her back.

Say you shoot down two, send dog, another flyover, & you shoot another but crip him, youll want your dog on that crip first. Its a necessity.
A Necessity.
Shoot enough ducks or geese, your dog better handle..it saves time, shells, meat & maybe your dogs life.

E Collars are illegal in Germany,
I dont own or use one. But they are just anothing training tool far as Im concerned. Good hands or bad hands the dog can benefit or it can inflict cruelty.

NAHRA still does cripple tests, I believe, but I havent run them, they arent affiliated with UKC any longer.

Regard to JGHV Testing...
You dont really train a dog to efficiently & methodically follow a rabbit or hare trail 400-1000+ meters, with or without distractions (game, hot scent).
Some are naturals, some arent.
Same goes with blood tracking, some lines & dogs, perform on aged tracks, some dont. This is why testing is crucial.

Not all dogs are created equal, without testing you have an absolute crap shoot.
Breeding is hard enough as is, With testing scores & stock for generatios recorded. To throw that away is not only foolhardy, its 'breed homicide.'
Not sure what you propose is a sound breeding practice to test/examine stock...




_________________
Real men hunt Wire Dogs


Last edited by whiskerdog1 on 07/05/08, 1:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Repoman
Guest





PostPosted: 07/05/08, 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And what you just posted was a lot of BS......... Rolling Eyes
Back to top
whiskerdog1
Master
Master


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt

PostPosted: 07/05/08, 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not at all.
The statement I post as facts, are facts. You call it 'BS' but you cant correct me on one point.

Fact 1 -German Hunts tests are similar to British Field trials. They are done on Wild game.
Fact 2 -E Collars are Illegal in Germany & many parts of Europe
Fact 3- Some dogs are natural hunters & excel tracking & finding crippled game, testing helps ID this stock
4-NAHRA still does a water cripple test. They were once affiliated with UKC

And you must not duck hunt much, or only on puddles...
If you hunt timber or flooded fields, you surely cant mark the fall of every duck or cripple. Its literally impossible where I & many others hunt.

You line & handle your dog to a possible scent cone..
This was a 32 duck day. If your dog cant handle, often times, you lose many shots & youre better leaving the dog at home.


_________________
Real men hunt Wire Dogs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Repoman
Guest





PostPosted: 07/05/08, 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BINGO......you are handling to a scent cone.....and if you were in an HRC test you would flunk, your dog just SOB'd.........because as the judges say, "we know which way the wind is blowing."

Now on the other points about wild game......I went to first level VDD test years back.... it was bogus, why? Because it was on wild game.......you can't judge a dogs nose if you don't know if their is game around. I asked the judge how you could judge a dog's nose with no known game around for sure......He said and I quote,

"If a dog gets to an area and checks it out with its nose, rolls its eyes and moves on, and no game is produced, then it is showing a good nose. A dog that checks out an area and keeps checking the area and the scent, is showing a poor nose because it can not make out that the game has left the area."

WHAT???!!! That is what he said....it was pure bunk!!

That is right he said "rolls its eyes"!!! Too funny.....I knew I was being fed a BS line then........


NAVHDA has a MUCH better first level test. They have birds in the field.....if the dog can't find any......well it speaks for itself........ Remember I live in America. Wink
Back to top
whiskerdog1
Master
Master


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt

PostPosted: 07/05/08, 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Repo..What you describe is complete fiction
Im starting to think that either you have an agenda or that Youre a Liar, & not a good one either

In the USA, The VDD/GNA test (NA test/VJP) is on BOTH Wild & planted game. This differs from German tests.
Wild game for the Tracking work (either jJckrabbits or Cottontails) on which Nose is judged, & planted Chukar or phez for the Field/Pointing work, on which nose is judged, when/where dog hits scent & indicates game by a point
A dog is only judged in the presence of game, not some 'mystery scent.'

Give it a rest already
Youre doing everything you can to discredit the breed from which you have inherited, & who was produced using the same methods the Founders created a century ago

You state tests are all about the 'training', I offer that the German tests are on Wild game, & you retract & try to discredit the Founders methods for examing stock & licensing their dogs for hunting..

And one can handle to a scent cone in HRC..You dont 'flunk' by allowing your dog to use its nose. 'Nose' is encouraged & sometimes necessary on some retrieves or in strong wind, but a giant search is not. There is no cripple test.
Lines must be honest & tight on any retrieve-mark or blind..
Please do us all a favor & educate yourself before posting.
I dont mind correcting you but its a disservice to yourself & others.
_________________
Real men hunt Wire Dogs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Repoman
Guest





PostPosted: 07/05/08, 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And one can handle to a scent cone in HRC..You dont 'flunk' by allowing your dog to use its nose. 'Nose' is encouraged & sometimes necessary on some retrieves or in strong wind, but a giant search is not. There is no cripple test.
Lines must be honest & tight on any retrieve-mark or blind..
Please do us all a favor & educate yourself before posting.
I dont mind correcting you but its a disservice to yourself & others.


The above is just not true.

The only disservice it is.....is to you! Exposing your BS. Laughing Laughing Laughing
Back to top
whiskerdog1
Master
Master


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt

PostPosted: 07/05/08, 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why dont you indulge us with some fictional story of your conversation with an imaginary judge...
have you ever even run a test?

This is right from the UKF/HRC Website. Ive run 5 tests to date.
My training partner is the President of my Region.

Quote:
The following are desirable traits of a true Hunting Retriever. They will be judged according to the Test standard, which will vary between each category.

1. Marking ability and memory
2. Nose
3. Hunting desire
4. Control
5. Hunting style

A retriever can be failed for failure to deliver to hand (to the area of the Handler in Started), excessive dropping and mouthing of the bird. The retriever should be marked down for repeated dropping or mouthing of the bird, or failure to return promptly to the line with the bird.

1. MARKING ABILITY AND MEMORY
The Judge must score on whether the retriever truly marked and remembered the bird, or if it merely stumbled upon it while wildly running around the field. Also, a retriever that must be handled to a marked fall does not demonstrate marking ability. Serious faults, which would be grounds for failure, would include:

1. Failure to find a bird;
2. Throwing an object to aid the dog; and
3. Excessive handling to marks that the retriever should have seen.

The Judge should score a retriever lower for poor marking, repeated handling on marks, leaving the hunt area, and disturbing too much cover.

2. NOSE
A sharply tuned nose is obviously a desirable characteristic of a hunting retriever; however, it is a difficult attribute to specifically test. Judges should be on constant alert for this trait during all tests. Judges should be careful, however, and not be quick to mark down a lack of nose on a particular test as scenting conditions can vary considerably from test to test.
A Judge should grade higher a retriever that has learned how to use the wind, hunt the heavy cover, as well as keep its mind on its business.'



http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Rules/HRRunniIntroductionAndGeneralInformatio

When your dog is near the cone or area of the fall/ or a blind, in a UKC HRC Test...
You simply have a command for 'dead bird', aka Use your Nose or Search, I use 4 short whistle blasts.

Repo-you shouldve quit long ago.
Dont make up stories.
Go & attend. Run some tests.
You never had a conversation with a VDD Judge.
Most judges are Pre-Occupied scoring, discussing & talking to the other judges or apprentices on test day. There is hardly time for them to talk a VDD member who is testing, let alone a bystander.
Bystanders are welcome but are usually well behind the pack of judges, testers & dogs..ALL DAY
_________________
Real men hunt Wire Dogs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Repoman
Guest





PostPosted: 07/06/08, 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again.......you will be failed for a dog using its nose in HRC......they would not know what a dog with a good nose is.....hence the SOB designation when judging.

Why don't you attend an HRC/UKC judges seminar?..........the rules in the book are not what they preach, nor what they do in judging the dogs.........

Been there, done that.

Tell the stories to someone else. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
Back to top
whiskerdog1
Master
Master


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Location: Rustbelt

PostPosted: 07/06/08, 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, Not true at all.
Im not discussing a Search pattern, I made that clear earlier.

I personally watched 4 dogs nice dogs this SPring, including a Chessie, FAIL a SR (Started HRC) Test.
They marked the fall well.
Were sent off, but didnt have the nose near the fall.
The ducks sometimes roll 8-12 yards from the fall depending on the wingers.
All 4 dogs continued in an ever widening search pattern that lasted well over 5-6 minutes & failed to deliever...this was a 70-75 yard mark in knee high cover.
Had they recovered the duck, they wouldve passed the test. It was a Started Test.

At the Fininshed test last Fall, I watched a Mark thown in the middle of a 2 acre lake. It was the 3rd Mark.
By the time the dog brought back the first 2 marks, the 3rd duck had drifted rather far into a thick area near the waters edge on the opposite side.
No one, including the Wingers or the Judges, could see that Duck.
In that instance...one handles to the fall & trys to get in the scent cone.

Been where?
How many tests/ titles have you attained in UKC/HRC?
It doesnt sound like you ever run one. Thereve only been 8 DDs/GWPs to title in HRC & 5 are DDS, 3 in my dams pedigree. Carey owns another nice male GWP.
You sure youre not chiming off without having or knowing any facts?
_________________
Real men hunt Wire Dogs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Repoman
Guest





PostPosted: 07/06/08, 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You sure youre not chiming off without having or knowing any facts?


Positive. Wink
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    German Wirehaired Pointer Club of America Forum Index -> General Chat All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group