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I hava a question

 
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ANGUS
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PostPosted: 03/03/04, 3:18 pm    Post subject: I hava a question Reply with quote

Just want to ask,,and not wanting to slag anyone,,just wondering...
why are there so many GWPs now with bright white coats?? I have seen an increase in how much whits is on a dog,,,,meaning not alot of ticking and some solid whites with liver??
is it a certain line that has become more popular lately,,or is it easier to see in the feild???
just thought I would ask.....thanks for any info you can give me...
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J Shelton
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PostPosted: 03/03/04, 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

from the breeders I've talked with, they've said its easier to see them in the field when whiter. I personally like the liver ticking or all liver.
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Dave1967
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PostPosted: 03/03/04, 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out-crossing

We really have a hard time coming straight at the facts. Breeders crossing and admitting it created all of the Versatility Dogs. They looked for dogs that had the characteristics that they wanted in the pup they were striving for. This practice has continued to this day in Germany. It is only here in American that we get all hung up on the true blue nature of the pedigree. We are trying our hardest not to really address the need for improvement in the breed. It happens, we like the result, we don't want to face the fact that some one crossed the line. The best examples that I can give are the English Pointer and the German Shorthair Pointer, both of which have had a great number of sly, devious, and cunning breeders to thank for their current hunting abilities. The current practices of out-crossing without acknowledging it is not limited to the hunting breeds. Go to any dog show and take a good look at the dogs that are winning and them measure what you see against what that breed looked like when it was first accepted into the AKC.
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dualgwp
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PostPosted: 03/04/04, 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an old paperback book on the breed... printed in the late 60's or so... on the cover is a white and liver GWP.

If you go back into our yearbooks, you will see many white and liver dogs, both show titled and field titled. Some folks like the color, some don't and many don't care as long as it's a good dog.

If a liver dog becomes very succesful and well known, chances are he or she will be bred....wella... liver pupppies.If any of those liver puppies become successful they too may be bred and the liver color will become more numerous and probably more obvious as well.

There have been a couple of successful white dogs in the past 15 yrs or so, and people have used them in their breeding programs, many of those kids were successful as well so the color perpetuates itself.

The whiter colored dogs are easy to spot in the field, and if you are mainly an upland hunter this can be an advantage. If you are mainly a duck hunter, I suspect a darker dog will be the better choice for you. Color is only a very small part of any dog... be it white, or be it solid liver or anywhere in between, it's whats underneath that coat color that is important. I think it's never a good idea to choose a dog or a puppy based on coat color alone... fools and their money can be parted easily.

One last observation.. my first white dog was born in a litter from two dark liver ticked parents (I owned both), a solid liver grandmother x a liver roan grandfather- a solid liver greatgrandmother x a light ticked liver greatgrandfather and about 3 more solid livers behind that. If there was any cross breeding done, it had to have been at least 7 generations back.... dogs and people long gone by that time. That original sire almost always produced one white puppy no matter what he was bred to. I kept the white male from that first litter because no one wanted him... thank goodness! He was probably the best dog I will ever have the opportunity to own. But, when he was bred, there may be or may not be whites in the litter, it was not a guarantee.

Moral to the story is, don't assume that because a dog is white it is a mix of something else. I know for a fact that mine were and are not. At least not in the last 40 yrs or so.

Bernee Brawn
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Jon P
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PostPosted: 03/04/04, 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect that color and patterning are two different things. What Dual seems to be describing would support this. White is a color within the color palate for the breed. Breeding a solid liver to a ticked dog could result in a white dog in that the solid patterning of the liver dog dictates the pattern while the white color may be the color expressed for a particular pup. Black roan dogs may not be bred to solid liver dogs in Germany for the same reason as solid black dogs are not allowed or wanted. It is known that the solid patterning of the liver dog and the dominant black color results in a high liklihhod of solid black dogs.

White dogs are not accepted for breeding in most European standards (Germany allows a patch no larger than 20 sq.cm.). This is an experiment that has been popularized by show and field enthusiasts here in North America, probably more than elsewhere. The argument that the white dog is easier to see holds some water but for those that hunt in the snow would seem to have little advantage. I don't know if white dogs would flair ducks, but I suspect they might unless they were kept still and under cover. The breed was conceived as a liver roan breed (or ticked) which is still regarded as the color of choice in Europe. Although black is an accepted breed color in Germany, the breeding limitations on black roan dogs severely retricts a breeders options, which is the reason liver/roan/ticked animals remain more popular and useful, especially among breeders.

Dual brings up a salient point though and that is that dogs that are successful can overly influence the GWP (or other AKC breeds) whether such dogs are in keeping with the standard or purpose is not as important. Winning does often become more important than the breed - sad but true. If small, white, light boned dogs excel at the FT game, it becomes self perpetuating. If white dogs win in the show ring, same thing. Popularization in any breed generally leads to a lack of diversity which for breeds that are not large in numbers leads to a generally less diverse genepool (the reason that stud odgs in Germany may be bred only 6 times/yr.). IMO white dogs have often brought poor pigment as well - light eyes, white toenails, etc. I suspect more than a few white dogs in the show ring with black nails owe those nails to Revlon!!!

The whole discussion points to the independent direction that the AKC GWP has taken in many cases - choosing to reinvent the breed to the likings of the owners. When white was hotly debated years ago, it was well known that the breed was never intended to be white, but once again, the breed took second place to the egos of a few owners. The lack of a solid genepool is largely due to the many independent directions in which the breed has been led. Such folks are easy to spot - they usually will tell you what they need a dog for and make it clear that the breed should serve their needs - they often have no intention of serving the breed - a phenomenon found often in the dog world.
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KJ
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PostPosted: 03/04/04, 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Dual and Jon give a pretty good explanation on white GWPs. White does not necissarily mean there is pointer in them, it just means that the dog has two white, recessive genes. From what I am aware of, white will still occasionally pop up in german breedings but, those pups are culled. As a result, you don't see white DDs nor are they ever bred but, it is certainly possible that there are german bred dogs that carry the white gene. Once white does pop up (and is not culled) and is bred to another white dog, ALL the pups will be white. So, in theory, you could go from litters of ALL ticked, roan, or solid dogs to litters of ALL white dogs in two generations just by selective breeding. Genetically, white is not classified as a color (vs black or liver) but as a pattern (ticked, roan or solid.

Most white dogs I have seen do have less pigment and do tend to have poorer quality coats than the ticked dogs. However, I have seen some white dogs with excellent coats. I have a 6 month old white pup right now with a coat as dense and harsh as any coat I have seen. I personally don't care what color the dog's coat is as long as it's tight, dense and harsh.
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ANGUS
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PostPosted: 03/04/04, 6:22 pm    Post subject: question Reply with quote

Thanks for the info guys...I was seeing the white in most of the show photos from conformation classes and thinking that there was a high% of thses dogs bright white...and mostly thinking it was a new fad.........I do show my dog in the ring,but mostly for the heck of it as I have still to show against a another GWP... so it is mostly in group that we compete,,but we do win some times, I live on Vancouver Island,,BC and there still is a very small population of wires here.......its hard to find a field trail here to work on my dogs title,so I have decided to work on his obedence and conformation....until I can do some traveling.....I have yet to even take in a trial to see how it works,,,but I can't wait..... again thanks for the info.....
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