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Help with the command "come here"

 
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Arnold Bunting
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PostPosted: 07/28/03, 1:48 am    Post subject: Help with the command "come here" Reply with quote

The command "come" Help is needed by owner.

I have a two year old GWP, female, who does everthing that I ask. for example, sit, lay down, rollover. Walks on leash fairly well (for a GWP that is). However she balks at the command come. She will stand there and just look at me and not move. She used to come at times when called about a year ago. Any suggestions that might help with this stubborn behavior regarding the "come here" command?

Arnold
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Keith
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PostPosted: 07/28/03, 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have the money an e-collar would fix this problem in a day. I just ordered my second one and wouldn't have a dog without it. Just yesterday I was out in my yard with my daughters cairn terrier. He saw a lab across the street and was running full speed to him. I yelled no and tapped the collar. He stopped in his tracks and came halfway back to me. He made one more half attempt. I yelled no and tapped the collar. He stopped and came back to me and finished eating. Once they have been properly introduced to the collar I never have to turn it off the lightest setting. Just knowing it is on will make them obey. It could save the dogs life.
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cheerio
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PostPosted: 07/28/03, 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh Keith, no. The e-collar is a wonderful tool to fix serious problems. Problem in recalling a dog can be fixed so easily with much softer methods.

Arnold, I think the problem is that your girl has learnt "trics", and not to be obedient. She may know the tric to sit or lay down or the one to roll over, but has not realized that an order is something to obey to no matter what and when, simply to please her owner.

2 methods to correct the problem.
If you dog is food oriented, put a little piece of bate in your hand, give it to her so that she knows what you hold. Then, take another one and guiding her with your "bated" hand, bring her around the room, chairs and tables. From time to time stop and tell her to sit. Then give her the bate. Do the same thing outside. Then take a ball, throw it, tell her to get it, and as she goes, run with her, bate in hand, pass her, and call her showing her your hand. She will come. Then, when she is in the yard and you want her to come, call and show your hand. If you sometimes give her the treat and sometimes not, it will reinforce her response.
If she is a little reluctant, you may add a little container, put some pebble in it. Do the same exercises but when you call, shake the container, and then give her the treat. She will learn to associate the sound of the container with the command "Come".

If your dog is not food oriented, not even cheese, you can resort to the older method which has proven itself years ago.
Put her on a long leash, make her sit and stay. Move to the end of the leash, recall her: "Star, Come!" and on the come, pull on the leash all the way to you. Repeat 3 times, on the 4 th time, do not pull, the dog will come. Do this every day for 5 to 10 minutes, no more, and as soon as you feel her coming on the word come, do not pull on the leash anymore.
To give her speed on her response, as she comes to you, run backwards for about 10 feet.
If she does not come while off leash, as soon as you get her, take the time to put her collar and leash and to redo the exercise 3 times. This is the most important part if you want her to become reliable.

Things to remember for a good recall:
1- use her name prior to the command: "Star, Come!"
2- you must have the last word so do not recall her unless you have time to take every necessary steps to ensure that she will come, even if it takes her 1/2 hour.
3- do not get upset and scream, screaming tends to excite to dog who will think it is a great game
4- The order should be ferm but not harsh. Remember, you are not mad, just asking her to do something.
5- use the command around the house, in the yard, outside the car... use it as much as possible in many situation where you are in control. When she wants to come in, open the door and as she enter say"Star, come!". as she is about to get out of the car, open the door and say"Star, come!"...
6- Probably the most important of all, always pet her and be happy when she comes, even if it is after 1/2 hours of total disobedience.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.
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Keith
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PostPosted: 07/28/03, 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or you can forgo all that and get the e-collar and have an obedient dog in a day. There is nothing cruel or harsh about an e-collar if used properly and to enforce known commands. There is something cruel about letting a dog ignore commands until one day when it is run over by a big truck. I have seen a dog get run over by a truck. Right in front of me. Dead center. The dog ran around before falling over coughing up blood and dying from massive internal injuries. On the other hand I leave my collar on the 1st setting for 90 percent of corrections. I can shock myself on this setting all day long and barely feel it. Much more humane than a truck tire over their ribcage.
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Anne
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PostPosted: 07/29/03, 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi There!
I'll try not to duplicate too much of Cheerio's post. Anyway, teaching come is kind of counter-intuitive so it is not uncommon to find it challenging. Weather an e-collar is too harsh or not the dog knows when they have it on and when they don't. Since it is a command that could save your dog's life (and has saved my dog's) I would suggest doing work so she is reliable all the time regardless if she is wearing any collar, leash or other training aid.

1. Look at your body position-
Can I venture a guess that you are facing the dog as you call her? Facing her head on is dog language for "Stay right where you are" (watch two dogs interact in the park sometime). Remember dogs are more focused on your body position than by you words. The dog will head in the direction of your feet and your face. So, when you call her run away from her clapping your hands and call her cheerfully. She is more than likely to follow.

2. Good things happen when you say, "Come!"
Remember dogs do what they find rewarding and do not do what they do not find rewarding. Never call "Come!" and start cutting your dogs toenails, putting her in her kennel when you leave for the day or leash her up to leave the park. Certainly never say, "Come!" and discipline the dog. In these cases the reward of not coming will greatly outweigh the reward of coming. Good, happy things happen when you say come. Use "Come!" when its time to go for a walk or time to eat.

3. Natural Rewards
You don't want "Come!" to mean playtime is done and the fun is over. (Trust me I learned this the hard way). Make sure to do a lot of calling your dog over and then sending her back to play.

4. Use high value rewards
Cheerio got into this so I won't but when you go out to do recall work go armed with very delicious treats that she does not get any other time. Maybe cut up hot dogs or little bits of cold cuts. If you have steak left over from dinner last night even better. Cut them into very small pieces so you can give her a lot of them. If she's not too food motivated find a toy she loves. (I find the Kong on a rope or an air Kong on a rope work well as they create a good visual for the dog and make a good reward when the dog gets there.)

5. End on a positive note
Remember to end on a note where the dog has been successful and is still having fun. This will make her excited to come back to it.

Hope this helps! Teaching recalls can be a lot of fun once you start to make progress! Let us know how it’s going.
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Anne
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PostPosted: 07/29/03, 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keith Wrote:
Quote:
Or you can forgo all that and get the e-collar and have an obedient dog in a day.


The fact that this could save your dogs life is the precise reason NOT to forgo all that. Any collar including a flat buckle is a training aid and training aids are OK, in fact necessary, however, because a recall is so critical I wouldn't stop until my dog was totally reliable with no training aid at all.

Last winter I was walking Riley to the dog park. We have to cross a busy street to get there. I hit an ice patch and lost my footing. I fell flat on my face and lost hold of the leash. Riley made a mad dash for the park and was headed directly into the traffic. I screamed "Riley! Come!" And seeing my dog's face as he ran towards me and away from the park and the traffic made every minute I had spent on recall work worthwhile.

If I had "forgone" the training and relied on an e-collar Riley would have at the very least caused an accident and very likely been hit. He would have been unlikely to respond to a verbal command with the lure of the park calling him and I was flat on the ground, my face in a snow bank, scraped and stinging, I never would have been able to manipulate an e-collar remote quickly enough.

We all rely on training aids for certain things, and that's why they're there, but please don't rely on it for something where the dogs life depends on them being able to do it anytime, any place, no matter what.
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Keith
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PostPosted: 07/29/03, 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I let my dogs wear their e-collars all the time I am in the field and anytime I have them out running. An amazing thing happens. They become more obedient all the way around even when their collar is off. Dogs are creatures of habit. If they are used to obeying with the collar on they will with the collar off. I have even seen personalities change. Dogs that were naturally more unruly than others wound up being the most obedient. That collar is nothing but an extension of the leash or checkchord. It tells the dog that even though they are now off the leash you can still enforce commands. If you don't want to spend the money on a good ecollar you can plead with the dog and over time they might listen.
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Baron
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PostPosted: 07/29/03, 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I happen to believe that training with an e-collar, if used properly, is an effectuve way to get a completely reliable recall whether the e-collar is on the dog or not. In addition, training with an e-collar will get you a quick response from the dog that you may not get otherwise.

Having said that, it is important to understand that the dog must be properly conditioned to the e-collar in order for it to be effective. The e-collar should be put on the dog every time you are training, taking it for a walk or run, or taking it for a ride in the car for several weeks prior to beginning any training with it. This way the dog will associate the e-collar with pleasant things and will actually get excited when you pick it up to put it on. In addition, when you do start training with the e-collar, this will prevent the dog from associating the collar with the correction. The dog should never be allowed to become “collar wise.” Otherwise, it may decide to disobey when not wearing the collar.

Once you find the proper level of stimulation for your dog, the dog should be conditioned to the collar using the “3 Step Method” (come to you, go away from you, and stay in place). To use this method, the dog must already know 3 basic commands; Come, Kennel, & Whoa (Hup for retrievers). Once you have properly conditioned the dog, the e-collar can be used to reinforce, and polish the response to, any command. There are good books and videos on the market that illustrate this method.

Good luck with your dog.
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cheerio
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PostPosted: 07/29/03, 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree with Baron, e-collars do have a place in training and can provide reliable response. I certainely agree that in order to provide this reliable response, the handler first has to learn how to use the collar properly and the dog has to be conditioned to the collar prior to any training taking place.
My question is then, why not save the time of training the handler, of conditioning the dog, of teaching the three basic comands, of figuring out the setting necessary for the dog, why not save the expense of the collar, and go directly to a more traditional and less aggressive method which will not require any more time and will be reliable?

This is of course just my point of view. There are as many training methods as there are trainers and therefore it is difficult to insist on which one is better. The truth of the matter is that all methods are the best, depending on the dog, the behaviour one wishes to control or alter, and the temperament of the handler. This is why a discussion board such as this one is so valuable, as it allows people with different experience, values and belief to share their thoughs, allowing the person in search of an answer to evaluate each one and decide for himself what is best for him and his dog. One thing is sure: consistency and a secure handler will always achieve, no matter what method is used.
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Baron
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PostPosted: 07/30/03, 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheerio,

I respect your point of view, and dogs can certainly be trained by more “traditional” methods without an e-collar. I have trained several that way. However, for me, the e-collar represents an advancement in training tools and techniques. I have found that I can train more effectively, achieve faster results, and get a more polished performance using the e-collar. No other method enables the trainer to make to consistently make perfectly timed correction from any distance when the dog disobeys or makes a mistake. This, in it self, speeds up the learning process for the dog.

As an example, I have been recently viewing a UK based BB where, for the most part, the people posting that are from the UK are opposed to the use of e-collars. However, the common theme that runs through most of the posts is that many of the dogs still exhibit problems with recall, retrieving, etc. when they are 3 – 4 years old. The overwhelming sentiment is that these dogs are still young and will come around in time with proper training. Conversely, I would expect a dog I trained to be a “finished” gun dog and/or a NAVHDA Utility dog and Master Hunter by that age.

My philosophy on training is to allow the dog to decide what is in its best interest. The e-collar fits perfectly into that philosophy. The dog learns to turn off stimulation by executing the command and learns to avoid stimulation by executing the command quickly and on the first command. So, I never force the dog to do what I tell it. If you force a dog, sometimes they think, “well, if he didn’t make me do it I wouldn’t have done it.” You see this quite often with dogs that will obey on a lead or check cord, but will disobey as soon as they are no longer tethered to the handler and out of reach. Instead, the dog trained with an e-collar makes the decision to obey commands because it is in its own best interest to do so.

Like you said, there are many different methods for training that will achieve the desired results. I have found this works best for me.
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Keith
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PostPosted: 07/30/03, 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that people that are opposed to the e-collar are under the misguided impression that they are somehow cruel. It is not cruel to put a leash on your dog and jerk it around by the neck but an e-collar is. This is nonsense. I have never had to use a higher setting more than once or twice on any dog. And usually for a behavior that requires more severe punishment like trying to fight another dog or chasing unwanted game. I just bought a new collar. The way I set the level was to hold it myself until I could just feel it. That is the level I will use for their training. And it will work. They just need to know that it is on. I find it much more humane than the old methods of control people use that don't have an e-collar. And quicker and more efficient.
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Keith
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PostPosted: 07/31/03, 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For anyone that has trouble using an e-collar because they think their dog is to soft and sensitive to handle any correction I would like to recommend a new collar I just bought. It is one of the dogtra collars and it has a vibrating command in addition to the normal functions. It works just like the vibration on a cell phone. It doesn't hardly bother the dog it just lets them know that the collar is on. I have found it effective and the dogs respond to a command without even a mild shock.
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admin
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PostPosted: 07/31/03, 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E collars can be very effective training aids in the hands of an experienced individual and I have no problem with them... however in the hands of an inexperienced person they can be terrible devices. (Ask me the story of the pup that I bred that came back to me last year.)

PLEASE if you are going to use an e-collar, make sure you have the guidance of a person who has used one before. It can make all the difference!!!!!

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Baron
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PostPosted: 07/31/03, 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, if done properly, I believe it is easier to train a “soft” dog with an e-collar than with any other method. The dog doesn’t negatively associate the correction with the trainer and is less likely to shut down.

Also, I try never to let the dog associate the correction with wearing the collar. A collar wise dog will often obey when wearing the collar, but completely blow you off when it knows the collar isn’t on. Once a dog becomes collar wise, the collar loses a lot of its effectiveness for training.
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Illona
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PostPosted: 08/04/03, 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Add another to the list of pro e-collars....in the right hands.

My 19-mo-old rescue GWP came to me at 7 mos of age. I spent the first 7 months doing a LOT of training with her -- both formal and informal. I worked with her on a long-line throughout the winter months, teaching her the commands I required.

When her compliance rate was around 90% (because of her high hunt drive), I graduated her to an e-collar...after MONTHS of research and speaking to dozens of experienced people. I could not have done it without their wisdom, and I don't believe anyone deserves to use an e-collar until they've spent at least a few months teaching the dog the commands and spending that time examining everything they can about e-collars and the various methods.

Upon introducing my girl to the collar, her compliance went down to maybe 60% for a few days because she had to first learn what the collar meant. What I now have is a dog that is 110% reliable. She is happier and far more confident than she ever was before the e-collar, as I can afford her complete freedom. The e-collar turned her life and our relationship into something I hadn't even dreamed of.

E-collars aren't for every dog, and certainly not for every owner. Like I said, I highly recommend doing your homework first, setting yourself out a plan and an approach, and if possible, finding a trainer to assist you in the early stages. HOWEVER, the groundwork has to be set. The dog HAS to know what is expected. E-collars can be used for far more than just correction; I use mine for guidance in some instances, speeding up training and comprehension phenomenally.

My dog's working level -- depending on the situation and level of distraction -- can be anywhere from so low YOU can't even feel it to slightly hotter levels, where I have to reach her through her drive. If you take the time to learn everything you can about the collar (and I recommend the articles on dobbsdogs.com as well as though written by Lou Castle), and introduce it properly, if you take the time to teach the dog that THEY control the collar, you can create a very remarkable relationship with your dog that NO other training device can achieve.

Also, there is no other device I know of that can be applied to off-leash and distance work. And to meet a GWP's physical needs, well, you need them off-leash.

I don't disagree with those here who remind us that dogs have been trained for centuries without e-collars. However, why turn your back to the possibilities provided by this amazing tool? But let me say again: you need to know what you're doing; you need to be able to read your dog and understand how he/she learns; you need a training plan, and you have to do your homework.

I'm not saying an e-collar is for every dog, however, I will never train without one now. If the dog proves to me he/she doesn't need one, then fine. But there is no other device that can reach your dog at a distance and with the percision timing of an e-collar. And even though my girl is 100% reliable, there could always be that 'first' time for something...like the first time she meets up with a skunk or a porcupine. Frankly, I'd rather teach her to avoid those critters with an e-collar, than leaving it up for the critter to teach the lesson. There are simply too many benefits and uses of an e-collar to ignore them. But for every benefit and every application of an e-collar, there is some moron out there ruining his/her dog with one. Do your homework.

Illona
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